Major Element dosing when using Captiv8

[ScottF]

I've been dosing All For Reef for my major element replenishment. It's fine, but I don't like the delay to the change in dkH and it would also be nice to get some kind of pH boost.

I'm thinking about switching to just using a two part of BRS soda ash and BRS calcium chloride/BRS Magnesium Mix. For minor and trace elements I'm planning on using ICP-MS testing to create a Captiv8 master solution.

My question is, if I'm using a Captiv8 master solution, do I need anything else with my 2 part? It seems like a stupid question. If I'm covering the minor and trace with Captiv8, I should only need the three majors right?

Also, Is there a better place to get quality soda ash, calcium chloride and mag than BRS? I was buying the BRS soda lime for my CO2 scrubber and someone here turned me on to JorVet which is way better than the BRS stuff in my opinion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes. For good ion balance you’d want to use Balling Part C or Aquaforest Mineral Salt.

You can make the alk part from baking soda, baked baking soda, or sodium hydroxide depending on the pH effect you want.

Randy Recommended DIY Two Part Recipes

There are a whole lot of different DIY recipes around now, and I thought I lay out the differences and my recommendations. In all cases, food grade, USP (pharma) grade, or Analytical Reagent/ACS grades are all good choices for materials. Lower or ungraded materials may be fine, but its more...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ScottF]

Yes. For good ion balance you’d want to use Balling Part C or Aquaforest Mineral Salt.

You can make the alk part from baking soda, baked baking soda, or sodium hydroxide depending on the pH effect you want.

Randy Recommended DIY Two Part Recipes

There are a whole lot of different DIY recipes around now, and I thought I lay out the differences and my recommendations. In all cases, food grade, USP (pharma) grade, or Analytical Reagent/ACS grades are all good choices for materials. Lower or ungraded materials may be fine, but its more...

www.reef2reef.com

Forgive my ignorance. Isn't part C essentially the same as a Captiv8 master solution except not in customizable ratios? Wouldn't it be two jugs of the same minor and trace elements with one supplementing the other?

 

[ScottF]

It my understanding that "Part C" is there to make up for the extra sodium chloride that is the byproduct of adding sodium carbonate and calcium chloride. It's everything that is in the salt bucket except for the sodium chloride. It's not meant to replenish minor and trace elements. Just to keep them from getting diluted when you add RO water to offset the extra sodium chloride.

I guess my question is, can you replace all of that with a solution of Captiv8 Isol8 minor and trace elements or is there something in the "Part C" that wouldn't be covered by the Captiv8 solution. It seems a little foolish to me to have two jugs of essentially the same thing, but in different proportions that are being dosed with two dosing pumps.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You referred to it as a minor and trace element supplement, so I did not think it was the same as Balling Part C, most of which is major ions, notably magnesium and sulfate, but also potassium and many minor and trace elements.

Can you link it? If this is what you mean, then no, it is not a replacement for Balling Part C.

ICP Customized Master Dosing Solution 1000 mL | Captiv8Aquaculture

Customized solution for addressing ionic deficiencies identified by our review of customer-provided ICP analysis, for systems with a net volume ≤500 U.S. gallons. Process requires that the customer provides us with a copy of their ICP analysis, or a link to review it online. Following this, a...

www.captiv8aquaculture.com

 

[ScottF]

You referred to it as a minor and trace element supplement, so I did not think it was the same as Balling Part C, most of which is major ions, notably magnesium and sulfate, but also potassium and many minor and trace elements.

Can you link it? If this is what you mean, then no, it is not a replacement for Balling Part C.

ICP Customized Master Dosing Solution 1000 mL | Captiv8Aquaculture

Customized solution for addressing ionic deficiencies identified by our review of customer-provided ICP analysis, for systems with a net volume ≤500 U.S. gallons. Process requires that the customer provides us with a copy of their ICP analysis, or a link to review it online. Following this, a...

www.captiv8aquaculture.com

That is essentially what I was talking about. Though I would be mixing my own with individual elements based on ICP testing. The Magnesium Chloride and Magnesium Sulfate would be coming from something like the BRS Magnesium mix mentioned in the original post.

The potassium and minor and trace elements would come from the Captiv8 master solution the would be created based on ICP testing. Essentially moonshiner method, but you create mostly one solution that is dosed daily instead of dosing individual elements monthly.

 

[ScottF]

Elements which may be included in this master solution:

• B
• Ba
• Br
• Co
• Cr
• Cu
• F*
• Fe
• I
• K
• Mn
• Mo
• Ni
• Rb
• Se
• V
• Zn

I would be mixing these elements as needed with RODI water to create a solution based on ICP testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This sounds overly complicated to me, but will work. IMO, Part C is a simpler option. Then you can add depleted ions based on need.

 

[ScottF]

This sounds overly complicated to me, but will work. IMO, Part C is a simpler option. Then you can add depleted ions based on need.

I was hoping someone here would have successful experience with the Captiv8 Reef Blueprint method and would be able to provide input on the best way to combine that with a "2-part" solution.

If calcium chloride+soda ash+Part C is the way to go, then that is what I'll do.

I was actually trying to simplify it thinking it redundant to add the same minor and traces from two solutions, but in the end your way is probably easier.

 

[ScottF]

Randy,
I see you offering your own solutions for DIY major ion replenishment. Looking back it seems like I am looking to do a DIY "Part C", but instead of making up for the dilution of ions based on the dilution from extra sodium chloride, I am trying to incorporate the amount of those elements for every thing my tank needs in a month based on ICP-MS testing.

Is that more complicated? Is adding another jug of elements to supplement a "Part C" more complicated?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
I see you offering your own solutions for DIY major ion replenishment. Looking back it seems like I am looking to do a DIY "Part C", but instead of making up for the dilution of ions based on the dilution from extra sodium chloride, I am trying to incorporate the amount of those elements for every thing my tank needs in a month based on ICP-MS testing.

Is that more complicated? Is adding another jug of elements to supplement a "Part C" more complicated?

It is more complicated, since you’d need to determine your demand for every element you dose. But after doing that, it’s just a matter of getting it making a usable product to dose each.

 

[ScottF]

It is more complicated, since you’d need to determine your demand for every element you dose. But after doing that, it’s just a matter of getting it making a usable product to dose each.

This is what I was thinking. At the end of the day it's basically a DIY Part C where the elements are meant to offset all consumption of said elements instead of just offsetting the additional sodium chloride.

If I am going to be creating a solution to do this anyway based on ICP testing, why not just combine them. As long as what I'm adding doesn't react.

I emailed Captiv8 and I'm discussing with them what elements are safe to combine with which major ions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is what I was thinking. At the end of the day it's basically a DIY Part C where the elements are meant to offset all consumption of said elements instead of just offsetting the additional sodium chloride.

If I am going to be creating a solution to do this anyway based on ICP testing, why not just combine them. As long as what I'm adding doesn't react.

I emailed Captiv8 and I'm discussing with them what elements are safe to combine with which major ions.

Ok, sounds like a plan.

 

[lpramos]

This is what I was thinking. At the end of the day it's basically a DIY Part C where the elements are meant to offset all consumption of said elements instead of just offsetting the additional sodium chloride.

If I am going to be creating a solution to do this anyway based on ICP testing, why not just combine them. As long as what I'm adding doesn't react.

I emailed Captiv8 and I'm discussing with them what elements are safe to combine with which major ions.

It would benefit the community if you let us know what Captiv8 says about what elements are safe to combine with which major ions. Thanks!

 

[ti_lavender]

I use and like the Captiv8 system. I use ATI Essentials Pro 2-part and Kalk. It has traces in the solution. So I’m doing some adjusting on what’s still needed with the Captiv8 traces. What you’re proposing will work.

I’m sure there’s a cost to compare between using a traces mix plus the Captiv8 method versus 100% Captiv8 method for your traces.

 

[ScottF]

It would benefit the community if you let us know what Captiv8 says about what elements are safe to combine with which major ions. Thanks!

Here is the first paragraph from my last email exchange with Chris Wood from Captiv8. I'm waiting for the results of the Oceamo ICP test I mailed to Moonshiners last week before going any further or bugging Chris more.

Dosing the minor and trace elements, as well as several major elements, from one solution is extremely simple with our formulations. With respect to combining Isol8 solutions in one master dilute solution for long-term dosing, all of the minor and trace element solutions are compatible with each other, as well as with Isol8 B, Br, F, K, and Si. Isol8 Ca, Mg, and Sr are compatible with each other and with all Isol8 minor and trace element solutions, however they are not compatible with solutions containing Isol8 B, Br, F, or Si.

 

[ScottF]

It would benefit the community if you let us know what Captiv8 says about what elements are safe to combine with which major ions. Thanks!

In addition to what I posted above, when you start the "Captiv8 method", you email an ICP report to Chris. He will take your report and feed it into his spreadsheet and email the spreadsheet back to you.

This spreadsheet has several tabs. There is a tab that tells you how much of what elements that you need to dose "immediately" (along with safe daily volumes) for each element in order to bring it up to the recommended levels.

There is a tab for the "master solution" which would be dosed daily to attempt to keep everything at the recommended levels. This would be fine tuned over time.

There is also a compatibility tabs that lists all of Captiv8's products and what is safe to mix with what. I am not going to post this as I don't feel that it is my information to post. I'll leave it to what I posted above, but if you are interested in trying it, he does provide you with this information.

 

[ScottF]

One other thing to note is Silicon. I believe that Chris is trying to match sea water levels. On the "detailed summary" tab there is a note beside silicon that says "If the system is being used to intentionally grow sponges, then apply Isol8 Si at a max rate of 1 drop per 100 gallons net system volume daily".

My system has almost no Silicon in it. Thus the spreadsheet says to add an absurd amount of Si in order to bring it up to sea water levels.

Chris mentions that a lot of people ask him about this in one of his videos with ReefBum. He said that unless you are trying to grow a cohort of sponges, you should probably not dose the Si.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Chris mentions that a lot of people ask him about this in one of his videos with ReefBum. He said that unless you are trying to grow a cohort of sponges, you should probably not dose the Si.

FWIW, I think dosing silicate is a fine plan for everyone, even if you do not have large sponges. The cryptic sponges that many folks have can benefit, as well as diatoms that may be preferably to its space competitors (green algae, dinos, etc.)

As an aside, seawater silicate varies widely and when you dose it, it typically depletes rapidly as organisms use it. I don't think targtting some fixed number is necessary.

 

[ScottF]

FWIW, I think dosing silicate is a fine plan for everyone, even if you do not have large sponges. The cryptic sponges that many folks have can benefit, as well as diatoms that may be preferably to its space competitors (green algae, dinos, etc.)

As an aside, seawater silicate varies widely and when you dose it, it typically depletes rapidly as organisms use it. I don't think targtting some fixed number is necessary.

Good to know. Maybe he was saying that I probably don't need to dose the 257 mL (at a maximum rate of 6mL/day) to bring my 250gal reef up to "sea water" values. Maybe just do the 2.5 drops per day as noted in the detailed summary tab.