Myths and Misinformation - fish edition

[lion king]

Can you pls add something to this pic so it helps me to know what we are looking at & what’s wrong with it?

This is about one year after copper exposure, this is a milder example of what I have seen. You can clearly see the black damage of the liver. I can't say what you would call this, I have seen livers in much worse conditions, even completely liquefied. Now some are going to just blame the hobbyist that they may have done something wrong, and that is part of it. But that's also one of my points. The everyday average hobbyist fails miserably at any attempt to use medications. I did most of my research before the advent of the camera phone, even before the internet. I'm not as involved as I was back then, I challenge the youngsters to get involved and do this research. If you work at a lfs or are active with a community of hobbyists, If you open your eyes you will start to hear about the deaths associated with people using copper in their qt's and from the lfs that run coper. If you can't remember how to do a dissection, check out youtube, you'll find examples of how to cut an actual lionfish, or whatever species you want to research. Take out your camera and document. I've done my work, you can listen or not, it does seem like some do still want to hear. I'm really kind of burnt out on this subject, I will repeat, at this point, do as you will.

 

[laezur]

Mortality caused by medications, years after application. Copper, formalin and cyanide have all been implicated in fish loss years after exposure – this is not borne out by histopathology.

I'm glad to hear this, unless I'm reading wrong. The clownfish I treated with formalin a couple months ago and managed to save won't die an early death due to their treatment? I hope so, I want to keep these little fella's for a long life but was worried my aggressive brook treatment would just shorten their lives anyway.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm glad to hear this, unless I'm reading wrong. The clownfish I treated with formalin a couple months ago and managed to save won't die an early death due to their treatment? I hope so, I want to keep these little fella's for a long life but was worried my aggressive brook treatment would just shorten their lives anyway.

Correct - there is no evidence that formalin causes latent mortality. I’m casting a wider net on this, just in case I’m missing something, but so far this morning, four aquatic vets I’ve spoken with say this is not an issue.
Jay

 

[MnFish1]

This is about one year after copper exposure, this is a milder example of what I have seen. You can clearly see the black damage of the liver. I can't say what you would call this, I have seen livers in much worse conditions, even completely liquefied. Now some are going to just blame the hobbyist that they may have done something wrong, and that is part of it. But that's also one of my points. The everyday average hobbyist fails miserably at any attempt to use medications. I did most of my research before the advent of the camera phone, even before the internet. I'm not as involved as I was back then, I challenge the youngsters to get involved and do this research. If you work at a lfs or are active with a community of hobbyists, If you open your eyes you will start to hear about the deaths associated with people using copper in their qt's and from the lfs that run coper. If you can't remember how to do a dissection, check out youtube, you'll find examples of how to cut an actual lionfish, or whatever species you want to research. Take out your camera and document. I've done my work, you can listen or not, it does seem like some do still want to hear. I'm really kind of burnt out on this subject, I will repeat, at this point, do as you will.

I think it might be important for you to write up your experiments with the methods, fish choice, etc in the experimental section - so it can be discussed? I wonder about fish choice as a potential problem with any medication (1 species may be fine another may not).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay
Regarding peroxide

If you use seneye on a running reef to calibrate the meter to match known baseline for nitrification, then add peroxide in several different commonly used doses, there's zero impact to filtration bacteria and in fact a temporary increase in efficiency compared to baseline. Your tests were done with api and not in a stocked, running reef display therefore I'm not sure why that claim exists.

Please repeat the study using seneye and a reef tank vs plastic/ qt setup lacking all protective organics

Peroxide in context of a reef tank doesn't harm filtration bacteria. List that among the paradoxes everyone expected (like orp)

Experiments in cycling done out of context to a stocked reef tank don't apply to stocked reef tanks, seneye users post fully opposite findings

Same thing as testing cold polished steel after applying peroxide, of course some bacteria will be dead/ not how reef tanks present

That peroxide article writeup did a disservice to peroxide users for the last 12 years finding a boost in nitrification, not a drop, we tested in the right context. There wasn't a differentiation between actual displays vs the potential impacts from barren holding/obs tanks which I agree it could impact

How does a seneye measure peroxide? I used dip strips expressly designed to measure low dose peroxide, and I checked the results against serial dilutions and they were accurate.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

As clarification, if I do not want to raise my temperature to 81, I still stick with 76 days?

What disease? 60 days usually works fine, but new fish need to be quarantined else you may find yourself right back in the same boat.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you Jay. Unfortunately in Australia General Cure is very difficult to acquire. Does Prazi, Metro and Fend get inside the fish if dosed into the water? Is it possible to rid a fish of internal parasites just dosing meds into the QT water?

How can I tell if or which internal parasites a fish has?

Sorry for all the questions, hopefully this helps many others. No point asking these types of questions for just anyone to answer..

Yes - marine fish drink water, so these medications enter the fish that way. However, the dose is typically lower than the normal medicated food dose, so it is not as effective. Freshwater fish don’t drink water at all, so adding medications to their water do not get inside those fish.
Jay

 

[MountainManReef]

Using dietary supplements as a “medication” the best diet in the world will not stop active infections – this is called the “chicken soup” syndrome.

Excellent write-up, so many conflicting bits of information out there, especially pertaining to things like stray voltage.

What about instances of HLLE? I am currently combatting a case of HLLE in a Coral Beauty dwarf angel, and it has been suggested to me that it is potentially due to a lack of algae in this fish’s diet, so I have been supplementing with both algae and also the addition of Selcon to at least one meal a day. I have not seen results or a remediation of the symptoms in any way. (Stay voltage was also suggested by several online sources as a potential cause.)

 

[lynn.reef.nerd]

What disease? 60 days usually works fine, but new fish need to be quarantined else you may find yourself right back in the same boat.
Jay

Fallow period in general. If I would like to avoid any types of disease. Or when it comes to coral/invert QT. If I wish to maintain temperature below 81.

 

[MnFish1]

My success and others may have something to say about calling us wrong. I specifically mentioned the situation where it may be necessary and exacting the meds and disease which was being addressed. Again the absolute, this is the way and that's that, sorry it doesn;t work that way, you must give individuals options in which they can manage.

I just asked a question - which you didn't really answer. IF you put xx mg of medication into yy ounces/grams whatever of food - how do you guarantee that the fish is getting a proper dose of medication to cure whatever illness you're treating. Take this as an example:

Your child has scarlet fever you grind up penicillin into broccoli and the kid spits out varying amounts of the mixture - or refuse to eat it? Thats the analogy I use when thinking about oral foods for fish disease

 

[vpierce3]

These are great points to help alleviate the spread of bad information by proving the information that has been studied and recorded beyond just anecdotal assumptions!


I understand that the fish are not grounded so will not be shocked just being in the water if there is stray voltage, but I've been wondering if there are any studies that indicate whether or not fish could sense stray voltage with their lateral line and be stressed by it, thus potentially allowing health issues through reduced immunity?
Is it thoroughly proven that stray voltage has no effect on the fish at all?

To be clear, I am just asking the question with no implications, as I am just curious and have no known prior experience or evidence.

Back when I was an electrical inspector, we studied a case in NY where people were getting shocked while swimming in a pool. The cause was stray voltage from a nearby transformer that had grounding issues on the low voltage side (I can’t remember the specifics however).
Also stray voltage is a huge issue in dairy farms. Cows are very sensitive to it and stray voltage can actually halt milk production.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Correct - there is no evidence that formalin causes latent mortality. I’m casting a wider net on this, just in case I’m missing something, but so far this morning, four aquatic vets I’ve spoken with say this is not an issue.
Jay

Would you include Copper and other medications along with formalin in not causing latent mortality?

 

[stephydawn]

Quick question about worming… would preventative deworming be something that I should do? My fish are good that I know of but without testing how do you know?

 

[Tony Thompson]

@Jay Hemdal , I am an electrical engineer I would appreciate it if you take another look at your statement re "stray voltage"

I believe this may be misleading, as it would appear to me to excluded or at least not address a number of major considerations. Electricity can flow in a circuit without an earth ground, it simply needs a potential difference. The statements also seems to exclude any possible effect of electromagnetic fields.

Clarification would be appreciated. As I believe this is how some myths are formed.

 

[littlefoxx]

At a minimum, 45 days for velvet, but 60 is safer. The 76 study wasn't done on velvet though, only marine ich.

Jay

Gotcha! Thank you!

 

[lion king]

I just asked a question - which you didn't really answer. IF you put xx mg of medication into yy ounces/grams whatever of food - how do you guarantee that the fish is getting a proper dose of medication to cure whatever illness you're treating. Take this as an example:

Your child has scarlet fever you grind up penicillin into broccoli and the kid spits out varying amounts of the mixture - or refuse to eat it? Thats the analogy I use when thinking about oral foods for fish disease

If you read my initial post,I said it is not black and white. This is an exact scenario that happened to me, and it's just an example of the same scenario that has happened to other hobbyist. I had a flagfin angel in a 40B qt, I treated him with prazi pro. He was way too stressed being confined, even though I increased the flow to help him and he was in a 40B, which is much larger than the qts many run. After 3 weeks I was concerned with his level of stress and put him into the dt, a 210g with close to 200 lbs of rock. Shortly after his appetite became voracious and he had stringy poo. Having previously lost a goldflake to internal parasites and knowing that Apolemichthys genus angels are notorious for internal parasites, I had a choice to make. Well I have seen the responses from the "internet experts", pull him and qt him and treat him. Fine response for a perfect world. I had a qt, fully cycled and ready to go, I just didn't have the time or patience to pull him out, hiding in 200 lbs of rock. Some if not many don't have a cycled qt or the resources to have one, some pull the fish and put them in an uncycled qt and then they die of ammonia poisoning. So I had to do the best I could. I used metro+focus mixed in food, I targeted him as best I could to get him enough and make sure he didn't get too much. Yes, it's a guessing game, but to do nothing woud mean definite death and the probability that other fish that eats his poo, get affected too. He recovered well, lived with me another several years, and went to a new home when I turned the tank into a fang tooth tank. You see, not black and white. We must offer options to people with the resources and capabilities they have, not an either do it my way or you are on your own. I've watched many scenarios like this, when the OP can't or won't do what the "internet experts" tell them to do, they just ghost them without giving other options. Then someone like me comes around and gives an option to the OP that they feel like they can handle and believe it may work, at least try, Then the "internet experts" show up to tell me I'm wrong, again without offering an alternative, to do it my way, it's the only way.

 

[MnFish1]

If you read my initial post,I said it is not black and white. This is an exact scenario that happened to me, and it's just an example of the same scenario that has happened to other hobbyist. I had a flagfin angel in a 40B qt, I treated him with prazi pro. He was way too stressed being confined, even though I increased the flow to help him and he was in a 40B, which is much larger than the qts many run. After 3 weeks I was concerned with his level of stress and put him into the dt, a 210g with close to 200 lbs of rock. Shortly after his appetite became voracious and he had stringy poo. Having previously lost a goldflake to internal parasites and knowing that Apolemichthys genus angels are notorious for internal parasites, I had a choice to make. Well I have seen the responses from the "internet experts", pull him and qt him and treat him. Fine response for a perfect world. I had a qt, fully cycled and ready to go, I just didn't have the time or patience to pull him out, hiding in 200 lbs of rock. Some if not many don't have a cycled qt or the resources to have one, some pull the fish and put them in an uncycled qt and then they die of ammonia poisoning. So I had to do the best I could. I used metro+focus mixed in food, I targeted him as best I could to get him enough and make sure he didn't get too much. Yes, it's a guessing game, but to do nothing woud mean definite death and the probability that other fish that eats his poo, get affected too. He recovered well, lived with me another several years, and went to a new home when I turned the tank into a fang tooth tank. You see, not black and white. We must offer options to people with the resources and capabilities they have, not an either do it my way or you are on your own. I've watched many scenarios like this, when the OP can't or won't do what the "internet experts" tell them to do, they just ghost them without giving other options. Then someone like me comes around and gives an option to the OP that they feel like they can handle and believe it may work, at least try, Then the "internet experts" show to tell me I'm wrong, again without offering an alternative, to do it my way, it's the only way.

Actually - I'm a medical professional - I just asked you a simple question - using your method - how do you avoid overdose - or underdose? I'm not criticising you - or your methods - I'm just asking a question. Many medications - including oral anthelminthics - can have systemic effects to the liver, and other organs. If the dosage is not high enough - you're left with the original problem. I was only asking how you mitigate that risk (over or under-dosage)

 

[MnFish1]

Would you include Copper and other medications along with formalin in not causing latent mortality?

I'm interested to hear what Jay has to say - In my experience - There is a temporary risk for immunosuppression with copper - and some fish do not tolerate it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal , I am an electrical engineer I would appreciate it if you take another look at your statement re "stray voltage"

I believe this may be misleading, as it would appear to me to excluded or at least not address a number of major considerations. Electricity can flow in a circuit without an earth ground, it simply needs a potential difference. The statements also seems to exclude any possible effect of electromagnetic fields.

Clarification would be appreciated. As I believe this is how some myths are formed.

First, we need to define “stray voltage”. In this case, it is <50 VAC in an ungrounded aquarium. Most often, the culprit of this is simply induced voltage that is only measurable from the tank water to ground as there is no potential in the tank itself.

Many years ago I discussed this with my father at length (also a PhD in electrical engineering). We worked it all out - me on the husbandry side and him with his electrical background, and that’s the conclusion we landed on. He has Alzheimer’s, so I can’t ask him to re-examine the question.

Years later, I made a presentation for him at an IEEE local meeting on electric eels, and this was also discussed - agreement was made there as well. The one thing we did discuss was electric eels and the direct current they produce - the field they produce DOES produce potential based on how much is intersected by nearby fish - tiny tetras can swim right up to the eel, but a 36” pacu would be shocked even from a foot away.
Then, my paper on head and Lateral Line Erosion ruled out “stray voltage” as a cause for that malady (that is the most commonly mentioned result from stray voltage).
There is some evidence, as I said, that electrical shorts can harm fish (and people), but these create potential between items in the tank (two broken wires for example) and I’m not sure that the damage isn’t from electrolysis.
Jay

 

[lion king]

Actually - I'm a medical professional - I just asked you a simple question - using your method - how do you avoid overdose - or underdose? I'm not criticising you - or your methods - I'm just asking a question. Many medications - including oral anthelminthics - can have systemic effects to the liver, and other organs. If the dosage is not high enough - you're left with the original problem. I was only asking how you mitigate that risk (over or under-dosage)

It's a guessing game, I know that's not the answer many want to hear. But sometimes you just do the best you can, you just can't expect everyone to have your resources or capabilities. Sure I could have pulled the tank apart and put him back into qt, and had a more controlled environment. But you also have to act fast, in my scenario, another day or two and he could have stopped eating. If I wouldn't have waited until I had the time to pull the tank apart, then maybe it's too late. And what about the exposure to other fish. See the perfect scenario is a guy sitting around with all the time in the world and all the necessary resources at his fingertips. I'm happy to expand on what I'm saying so people can get context.