Need Advise For Nitrate Phosphate Balance

[mike.metzger6]

Hoping to get Randy’s expertise here as I feeling like I’m going in circles. I have a 210 a 120 a 300 gallon sump and a 60 gallon frag tank all on the same system. Total water volume estimated at 575-600 gallons. Tanks are 18 months old. Parameters are very stable at 8.5alk, 1400 mag, 450 cal all tested daily on trident. Full of probably 400lbs live rock, SPS, LPS, and softies which all are doing well and growing. My struggle is nitrate and phosphate balance. Since im dosing I don’t do water changes. My nitrates sit between 30-35 typically and phosphate has become an issue with bottoming out regularly …both tested with Hannah testers. My goal was to get nitrates in the 10-15 range and phos .1 and under. I’ve been carbon dosing at 100ML per day DIY NoPox 500ml vinegar/400ml vodka/100ml ro water as stock solution for the last 6 months. I tried going up and down with the dose and nitrates didn’t really move. Went as high as 175ml daily and started getting white film so I dialed back to the 100ml dose. I recently added a fuge in a 5 gallon bucket full of Cheato and sea lettuce and an ATS200 algae scrubber. I’ve been running the scrubber and fuge opposite of the tank lights. That’s been going for about 2 months and still no reduction in nitrates. However major effect on phos which I expected. I’m now dosing Neophos at 30ml a day to try and keep the phos from bottoming out but since the scrubber is established and fuge is growing wildly all phos is being immediately consumed while nitrate is remaining the same. I feel like I’m at the point of overkill but dont know what to change or omit to get the.numbers where they should be. What’s the right combination ?I also run a Reef Octo SR6000 skimmer and 2 large filter socks which recently seem to overflow within 24hrs at most. Thanks in advance for any advice that can help me get these two parameters dialed in

 

[rishma]

I’m not Randy, but…
How do the corals look? Any other issues? Sorry, I know that doesn’t help you reach your goal but some great tanks have pretty high nitrates.

It is remarkable that nitrate doesn’t budge with all the steps you’ve taken. Especially carbon dosing. I’ve always seen nitrate driven down with carbon dosing. From a past experience with test kits going bad and chasing my own tail, are you confident in your nitrate test results?

Cheers

 

[am3gross]

If your corals look good and keep growing with no algae issues, my vote is you are good. Shouldn't chase numbers. What is good for my system might not be for yours.. for what's it's worth, I have close to the same setup, 375 display, 300 gallon sump, 50 gallon skimmer tank and 2 75 gallons for frag tanks.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

It sounds like you're nitrates stay the the same no matter what. I personally think you are doing to much. Many people running 25-30 nitrates and .03-.1 phosphate. I would pull back run skimmer part time until phosphate comes up and don't worry about 25- 30 nitrates

 

[mike.metzger6]

Yeah it’s strange they ju

I’m not Randy, but…
How do the corals look? Any other issues? Sorry, I know that doesn’t help you reach your goal but some great tanks have pretty high nitrates.

It is remarkable that nitrate doesn’t budge with all the steps you’ve taken. Especially carbon dosing. I’ve always seen nitrate driven down with carbon dosing. From a past experience with test kits going bad and chasing my own tail, are you confident in your nitrate test results?

Cheers

It’s strange they just don’t seem to move. I feel like I’m doing too much at this point. Everything seems happy I just wonder if it could be better I guess. I’m testing daily to look for changes and even with new reagents I get the same results. It moves up or down one or two numbers but that’s it.

 

[mike.metzger6]

It sounds like you're nitrates stay the the same no matter what. I personally think you are doing to much. Many people running 25-30 nitrates and .03-.1 phosphate. I would pull back run skimmer part time until phosphate comes up and don't worry about 25- 30 nitrates

I agree I feel like I’m doing to much. Just worried if I cut out something if the nitrates will then spike up or still sit where they are. Ideally I thought carbon dosing would be the answer and when it didn’t work I dialed that back and tried the more natural approach with the fuge and scrubber.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

This is the tight rope we walk. NP-Bacto-Balance helps me . A 120 with 40 breeder sump. Kinda a smaller version of your setup.

 

[rishma]

I would reduce lighting duration on fuge and ATS so that you are not fighting to keep phosphate up. My guess is nitrate won’t be effected much.

I wouldn’t turn off skimmer. Definitely not while carbon dosing.

I see sand in your sump? If it’s a DSB I would think it would help nitrate, any chance it’s holding a lot waste? Just wondering where this infinite reservoir of nitrate is coming from.

 

[Dan_P]

Hoping to get Randy’s expertise here as I feeling like I’m going in circles. I have a 210 a 120 a 300 gallon sump and a 60 gallon frag tank all on the same system. Total water volume estimated at 575-600 gallons. Tanks are 18 months old. Parameters are very stable at 8.5alk, 1400 mag, 450 cal all tested daily on trident. Full of probably 400lbs live rock, SPS, LPS, and softies which all are doing well and growing. My struggle is nitrate and phosphate balance. Since im dosing I don’t do water changes. My nitrates sit between 30-35 typically and phosphate has become an issue with bottoming out regularly …both tested with Hannah testers. My goal was to get nitrates in the 10-15 range and phos .1 and under. I’ve been carbon dosing at 100ML per day DIY NoPox 500ml vinegar/400ml vodka/100ml ro water as stock solution for the last 6 months. I tried going up and down with the dose and nitrates didn’t really move. Went as high as 175ml daily and started getting white film so I dialed back to the 100ml dose. I recently added a fuge in a 5 gallon bucket full of Cheato and sea lettuce and an ATS200 algae scrubber. I’ve been running the scrubber and fuge opposite of the tank lights. That’s been going for about 2 months and still no reduction in nitrates. However major effect on phos which I expected. I’m now dosing Neophos at 30ml a day to try and keep the phos from bottoming out but since the scrubber is established and fuge is growing wildly all phos is being immediately consumed while nitrate is remaining the same. I feel like I’m at the point of overkill but dont know what to change or omit to get the.numbers where they should be. What’s the right combination ?I also run a Reef Octo SR6000 skimmer and 2 large filter socks which recently seem to overflow within 24hrs at most. Thanks in advance for any advice that can help me get these two parameters dialed in

Some thoughts.

The carbon dose that gave the white film was ar the point where carbon dosing would have started showing results.

A five gallon bucket of algae likely has too small of a surface area to expose all the algae to bright light. It is just not growing fast enough to remove much nitrate.

As for phosphate, switch to something cheaper and don’t worry about the fact you need to dose. The cause might just be that the food added to the system is not enough to keep up an excess of phosphate in the water.

 

[mike.metzger6]

I would reduce lighting duration on fuge and ATS so that you are not fighting to keep phosphate up. My guess is nitrate won’t be effected much.

I wouldn’t turn off skimmer. Definitely not while carbon dosing.

I see sand in your sump? If it’s a DSB I would think it would help nitrate, any chance it’s holding a lot waste? Just wondering where this infinite reservoir of nitrate is coming from.

I also feel like the skimmer is a must to keep on. Judging by the color and smell lol of what it pulls out of the water I know it’s a useful tool.
I have a good 3inch or so sand bed in the display tanks. The sump just has a thin layer maybe an inch which I originally put in to give stingrays a chance to hide. I’ve since lost the stingray and my girlfriend is a huge puffer fan. It now houses 5 puffers a XL rainbow parrot fish and a couple little fish. The sump bottom stays immaculate as those fish don’t let a spec of food go to waste. I know the fuge and scrubber are definitely help but just wondering if they are only pulling phosphates from the water and not aiding in nitrate removal. The scrubber does an amazing job at growing algae and keeping it out of my display. Maybe I should pull the fuge.

Some thoughts.

The carbon dose that gave the white film was ar the point where carbon dosing would have started showing results.

A five gallon bucket of algae likely has too small of a surface area to expose all the algae to bright light. It is just not growing fast enough to remove much nitrate.

As for phosphate, switch to something cheaper and don’t worry about the fact you need to dose. The cause might just be that the food added to the system is not enough to keep up an excess of phosphate in the water.

I was under the impression that the white film was a sign to back off of the NoPox. The fuge has a kessil H160 light on it. The 5 gallon bucket is on its side with the whole section cut out and holes drilled in the lod
And base for water flow and has an extra return bleed line from my pump flowing water thru it also. The cheato and lettuce seemed to grow fairly quick. The lettuce I feed the fish the cheato I pull out a large clump every week.

 

[sixty_reefer]

How much is 30 ml of phos in ppm for your tank’s volume

 

[Cichlid Dad]

The benefits of running your skimmer part time while carbon dosing is the increased bacteria eates the nutrients locking them up, then your coral eat the bacteria filled with the nutrients. You will see increased growth and better colors. I adjust my skimmer so it is still running but not producing skim at night. That way you still get the oxygenation effect. I believe our equipment has gotten to good and strip too much out of our systems. This is food for our coral. If you have to low of phosphate then the cure is pulling back so that it will increase in our tanks.

Just my 2 pennies

 

[mike.metzger6]

How much is 30 ml of phos in ppm for your tank’s volume

According to their directions multiply tank volume x desired amount of increase in ppm x 3.785ML Of product

600x.01x3.785=22.71
600x.02x3.785=45.42

I went with 30 as a starting number between those to see if I got a rise in phos but I still think k need more. My thoughts are though am I just dumping this phos in because the fuge and scrubber are depleting it so quickly. If that’s the case, why is there no movement in the nitrates and am I just feeding those two and not affecting the nitrates which is my end goal

 

[mike.metzger6]

The benefits of running your skimmer part time while carbon dosing is the increased bacteria eates the nutrients locking them up, then your coral eat the bacteria filled with the nutrients. You will see increased growth and better colors. I adjust my skimmer so it is still running but not producing skim at night. That way you still get the oxygenation effect. I believe our equipment has gotten to good and strip too much out of our systems. This is food for our coral. If you have to low of phosphate then the cure is pulling back so that it will increase in our tanks.

Just my 2 pennies

That’s a very good point and I appreciate the insight. Just looking for everybody’s expertise or at least trial and error to try and simplify something. I think I’ve made way over complicated.

 

[mike.metzger6]

How much is 30 ml of phos in ppm for your tank’s volume

I also forgot to mention that I’ve been using a scoop of reef Roids once a day with my feeding since everybody reports it’s a phosphate bomb

 

[sixty_reefer]

According to their directions multiply tank volume x desired amount of increase in ppm x 3.785ML Of product

600x.01x3.785=22.71
600x.02x3.785=45.42

I went with 30 as a starting number between those to see if I got a rise in phos but I still think k need more. My thoughts are though am I just dumping this phos in because the fuge and scrubber are depleting it so quickly. If that’s the case, why is there no movement in the nitrates and am I just feeding those two and not affecting the nitrates which is my end goal

I believe you mentioned that you are also carbon dosing? Is that correct?
In this situation were you dose a small amount and won’t have any detectable phos it’s usually recommended to try a double dose.
You have many variables agaís you at the moments.

1. Aragonite surface being able to absorb PO4
2. Algae beds demand for phos
3. Microbial demand for phos

 

[mike.metzger6]

I believe you mentioned that you are also carbon dosing? Is that correct?
In this situation were you dose a small amount and won’t have any detectable phos it’s usually recommended to try a double dose.
You have many variables agaís you at the moments.

1. Aragonite surface being able to absorb PO4
2. Algae beds demand for phos
3. Microbial demand for phos

I am carbon dosing currently at 100MLper day spread out on a doser using DIY NoPox. I am adding 30ML of neophos but am going to make a DIY solution of potassium phosphate. Am just trying to figure out am I dosing the phos and only supporting growth in fuge and scrubber and if so why does it have no effect on the nitrate being lowered in the system.

 

[mboley]

The benefits of running your skimmer part time while carbon dosing is the increased bacteria eates the nutrients locking them up, then your coral eat the bacteria filled with the nutrients. You will see increased growth and better colors. I adjust my skimmer so it is still running but not producing skim at night. That way you still get the oxygenation effect. I believe our equipment has gotten to good and strip too much out of our systems. This is food for our coral. If you have to low of phosphate then the cure is pulling back so that it will increase in our tanks.

Just my 2 pennies

But nitrates would increase too, and that's what he wants to reduce.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

But nitrates would increase too, and that's what he wants to reduce.

He wants to increase phosphate. His nitrates stay at 25-30 pretty steady which is fine. He was thinking he needed to lower nitrates which he doesn't.

 

[mboley]

He wants to increase phosphate. His nitrates stay at 25-30 pretty steady which is fine. He was thinking he needed to lower nitrates which he doesn't.

Well. He said this " My goal was to get nitrates in the 10-15 range and phos .1 and under". Lots of us don't feel comfortable with 30+ Nitrates.

Contrary to your advise, I'd say increase skimming ( the skimmer in his pics looks like it might be small for the water volume) to reduce Nitrates and dose phosphates.