Nitrates are BAD...no no no they are GOOD!! Wait, What?!?!

tdlawdo · Aug 23, 2019

Streetcred said:
Corals need both nutrient and nitrates ... in a prescribed ratio 16:1 :: N : P ... in the range 10 - 20 (Redfield Ratio). Or, 10:1 :: NO3 : PO4 ... in the range 7 - 13 (Buddy Ratio).
You can thank me later ;-)

Buddy ratio is my birthday easy to remember ...thanks

tdlawdo · Aug 23, 2019

Belgian Anthias said:
Corals do not bother much about the ratio's present in the water column as long they have an active holobiont. The holobiont is very adaptive to the environment. In nature corals retrieve most nitrogen en phosphorus from organics provided within the holobiont by all kinds of bacteria , archaea , fungi, and symbionts.
for example: if in the environment there is not enough nitrogen and phoshorus the growth rate within the holobiont will slow down and there will be a lot of organic phosphorus and nitrogen coming available; nitrogen will also be provided by nitrogenase within the holobiont. If there is an unlimited supply of nitrogen and phosphorus the availability of other building materials will be the regulator. if there is shortage within the holobiont corals will provide nutrients by excrements .
In open water this works fine as there will be an unlimited supply although at a very low competitive level. In a closed system we can not mimmic this, that is why a detectable availability should always be available; what we measure is what is not used, YET!
My point of view, there is no need for nutrients to be present in a certain ratio or range in de water column of the home aquarium. Keep the nutrients detectable and controlable. An abnormal increasing level of nutrients as nitrate or and phosphorus is in most cases a signal, a messenger for problems and not the cause which must be battled.

Wholistic reefing...novel!! Thanks for the info! Sounds like me taking to my patients in many ways!

tdlawdo · Aug 23, 2019

Belgian Anthias said:
Corals do not bother much about the ratio's present in the water column as long they have an active holobiont. The holobiont is very adaptive to the environment. In nature corals retrieve most nitrogen en phosphorus from organics provided within the holobiont by all kinds of bacteria , archaea , fungi, and symbionts.
for example: if in the environment there is not enough nitrogen and phoshorus the growth rate within the holobiont will slow down and there will be a lot of organic phosphorus and nitrogen coming available; nitrogen will also be provided by nitrogenase within the holobiont. If there is an unlimited supply of nitrogen and phosphorus the availability of other building materials will be the regulator. if there is shortage within the holobiont corals will provide nutrients by excrements .
In open water this works fine as there will be an unlimited supply although at a very low competitive level. In a closed system we can not mimmic this, that is why a detectable availability should always be available; what we measure is what is not used, YET!
My point of view, there is no need for nutrients to be present in a certain ratio or range in de water column of the home aquarium. Keep the nutrients detectable and controlable. An abnormal increasing level of nutrients as nitrate or and phosphorus is in most cases a signal, a messenger for problems and not the cause which must be battled.

Is it safe to say then that you ascribe to the hologenome theory as well? Are you a scientist?

schooncw · Aug 23, 2019

A very interesting thread.....I have a general question and please forgive the generality but do you think a macro algae reactor-such as the Tunze Macro Algae Reactor 3181- with have a positive effect on reducing Nitrate and Phosphate? I have a heavily stocked 125 mixed reef and although it looks great, my nitrates are always off the chart and PO is also relatively high. I have a lot of rock, much of it at least 20 years old.

Hans-Werner · Aug 23, 2019

I have not read most contributions to this thread but to me the answer seems quite simple: If nitates would be good we all should have trickle filters. Nothing is better in producing nitrates from ammonium than trickle filters or oxidizing biological filters. Once reef aquaria had trickle filters but not for very long, I think because it has turned out it was the wrong way. All corals need is some nutrients but they don´t need nitrates, not a tiny amount. Corals need some ammonium and some phosphate but no nitrate.
Nitrate seems to work for some specific problems but corals don't need it. In fact if corals have to assimilate nitrate to get some nitrogen they may suffer from oxidative stress and may get burnt. Oxidative stress may render some corals more colorful.
In most reef tanks nitrates are just the indicators that they have sufficient nutrients, in fact more than necessary.

Hans-Werner · Aug 23, 2019

I think a macroalgae reactor has a positive effect on lowering nitrates. Many macroalgae, especially greens, store high nitrate concentrations in their vacuoles. Most macroalgae like nitrate and take up lots of it. This makes them effective in lowering nitrate.

I am less sure about phosphate.

acropora4u · Aug 23, 2019

very helpful info, thanks all

schooncw · Aug 23, 2019

Thanks for your reply. I am sure it will be beneficial but just "how" beneficial, I do not know. I know my real problem is with the very old live rock. 2 x Marine Pure Blocks in sump, GFO and chemipure 24/7 and nopox.....nitrates still off the chart but the tank looks great. No SPS tho

Hans-Werner · Aug 23, 2019

Do not chase numbers but I'm sure you don't.

Dosing organic carbon may reduce some nitrate to nitrite. Check for nitrite if you have the opportunity. Nitrite may indicate as high nitrate with your test kit. Nitrite is virtually non-toxic in saltwater tanks, so no need to worry if you have nitrite.

AngelFly · Aug 26, 2019

Hello, long story short. I agree on nitrates/phosphates real important. For some reason I'm unable to raise these in my 55 gal tank. Where at 20-40ppm at one time. Added refug and ton of other things. Reduced to 0. Everything died. I removed everything except refug. Still 0 nitrates. Should I remove refug. What is eating all my nitrates? Could it be the rock and algae on rock? I'll attach photo. I'll be moving to new 90 tank. Need action plan here would really like to establish reef tank. Have 3 good size tangs and one clown. All other numbers per recommendation , my issue is 0 nitrates and phosphates I'm convinced. Thanks for ideas.

Hans-Werner · Aug 27, 2019

@AngelFly, the tank looks a little bit cloudy and a bit like organic load. Are you dosing any organics, maybe amino acids? Are organic fumes in the room like from disinfectants?

Paul B · Aug 27, 2019

I am undecided about nitrates. For years my nitrates were as high as my chart would read or about 160. Now after I moved and have unrestricted access to NSW near my house my nitrates are about 25.
When they were 160 I had great LPS, clams etc but couldn't keep much SPS except montipora which grew almost too fast. Sps would not live more than a few months.

Now with readings of 25, the SPS grow better than the LPS. I tend to feed a lot with such things as fresh clams and they exude a lot of "juice" which makes the sponges grow like crazy. Much of my tank is covered in blue/green sponge which are great filters. I am not sure exactly what they are filtering, if it is all particles, bacteria, parasites or whatever.

I am trying to keep my nitrates at this level and an experimenting with a DIY Sulphur Reactor just for kicks.
I can change the water but even living by the sea, it is still heavy and for some reason gets heavier every year.

This sponge I have to keep cutting back. It has been growing for decades but I like it and I "assume" it is beneficial.

Old picture with 160 nitrates

These acropora are one of the few SPS that didn't mind nitrates well over 100. It grew from fingernail size to grapefruit size and was fragged all over the tank.

You can't keep them with spawning clown gobies as they lay eggs all over them and the eggs kill large portions of the coral every week.

Belgian Anthias · Aug 27, 2019

Paul B said:
I am trying to keep my nitrates at this level and an experimenting with a DIY Sulphur Reactor just for kicks.
I can change the water but even living by the sea, it is still heavy and for some reason gets heavier every year.

If you are interested In BADES ( Biological Anaerobic Denitrification on Elemental Sulphur) you will find everything about the use of sulphur for managing the nitrogen availability and for to close the nitrogen cycle in de Makazi Baharini wiki. How it works, history, the practical use , etc... We do not promote the use Sulphur denitrators in the sence of reactors that are kept anoxic, used the same way one would do managing a heterotrophic carbon dosed denitrator . We do not keep reactors anoxic (< 0.5ppm O) as it is not needed. To make the difference between een anoxic kept reactor, in the Makazi Baharini wiki we call a sulphur based bioreactor a BADES -reactor. For the use of sulphur as a bio-filter no reactor is needed although it is recommended to use BADES -rolls in a refuge for easy management. BADES -rolls remove ammonia-nitrogen and nitrate-nitrogen simultaneously without effecting alkalinity. We do not sell a thing! The Makazi Baharini wiki just provides information, for personal use only, and does not contain any commercial content.
Links highlighted in blue will redirect you to an other page and article. References van be consulted by using the link. The info is found at baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:badess:start .
Also an anoxic kept sulphur denitrator wil work fine and safe when managed properly but it is difficult or impossible to keep a steady low nitrate level at a high daily nitrogen production as with the flow needed one will not be able to keep the reactor anoxic. Which leads to the use of a BADES-reactor.
I can not see the kicks in using a Sulphur Based Nitrogen Management System ( SBNMS)

Paul B · Aug 27, 2019

Belgian Anthias, Thanks for that. I will look into it.
I am not really that interested in lowering the nitrates, it is more just to experiment and I have all this stuff laying around so I like to use it.

It's just a test and part of the experience.

Belgian Anthias · Aug 27, 2019

Paul B said:
Belgian Anthias, Thanks for that. I will look into it.
I am not really that interested in lowering the nitrates, it is more just to experiment and I have all this stuff laying around so I like to use it.
It's just a test and part of the experience.

Using a SBNMS or BADES System is not just about lowering nitrates. It is about having full control over the nitrogen content in the system. Lowering a high nitrate level is an easy task using a BADES-reactor. Keeping them low and steady at a high daily production ( high bio-load) is where an SBNMS and BADES makes the difference . Keeping nitrates at the desired level by closing the nitrogen cycle. The use of a SBNMS makes it possible to keep a heavy loaded mixed reef aquarium by supporting a high carrying capacity due to direct ammonia-nitrogen export. It is not only a good denitrator. A BADES System is also a good and very effective bio-filter which does not produce nitrate.
The application alows an other way of reefing.
The use of BADES is well documented and a lot of research has been done using marine and reef aquaria. Most of these publications you may consult in the Makazi Baharini wiki. BADES is used in marine aquaria since a few decades. BADES and the use of elemental sulphur for nitrogen management have no secrets any more.
Success with your experiments.

Dr. Dendrostein · Aug 27, 2019

Daniel@R2R said:
Lots of good info in here. It seems the discussion of NO3 & PO4 is becoming a major conversation again.

Ok, 10ppm in my custom, self cleaning(almost), as seen on tv, nano tank.
Guess whats in it. One of the most difficult(supposed) corals carnation corals.
Pepe La Thistle has roots coming out of it. Shouldn't be happening. I put 2 others in, one yesterday other 1 hour ago. For company.