Ozone Use in Marine Aquariums

[naterealbig]

And a few more:

(because you mentioned possible utilization of H2O2 in a future system....)
A Competitive Study Using UV and Ozone with H2O2

More UV/Ozone in Public Pool Applications (w/ H202)...
Combined UV treatment and ozonation for the removal of by-product precursors in swimming pool water

Some Ozone/UV/AOP (Advanced Oxidation Process) 101
The Big 3 of Sanitation Explained: Ozone, UV and AOP

 

[GARRIGA]

@GARRIGA - found this while I was sniffing around. Probably already came across it, and unfortunately I could not find any references in the article. (Even better, the author is marketing admin for a ozone equipment manufacturer). None-the-less, perhaps will shed a bit more light on the UV/Ozone combo efficacy... The article does list author's contact info who could possibly provide references....

Forgive me for the kindergarten-level question: would the creation of OH radicals translate to a change in alkalinity in our system?

"The Ozone/UV Combination", Couch, Ben, 28, Sep. 2021. WaterWorld Magazine.

.....

Haven’t read anything where it impacts alkalinity although a byproduct as I understand it being co2 therefore it’s possible.

Another option to OH being UV-C and peroxide which isn’t as potent but potent enough. Less issues as I’ve not read it produces OPO such from ozone. Also I believe produces co2.

 

[naterealbig]

Haven’t read anything where it impacts alkalinity although a byproduct as I understand it being co2 therefore it’s possible.

Another option to OH being UV-C and peroxide which isn’t as potent but potent enough. Less issues as I’ve not read it produces OPO such from ozone. Also I believe produces co2.

Haven't read the articles in-full yet, but a couple articles (links) in my next post seem to dive in to combo of all 3.

As an aside, my initial thought was that UV-C & Ozone application in public pools is likely (much) stronger than what we would typically use for the hobbyist-sized aquarium and therefore some level of translation would need to be done to scale down for our purposes. However the fact that UV-C degrades ozone (potentially to negligible levels) before the treated water returns to the system means the possible benefit is two-fold; not only could post-treatment water require less (or no) carbon to absorb residual O3, but the O3 overdose risk could be decreased, meaning that a higher concentration of ozone could be utilized.

Although as I recall from both Jay's and Randy's articles on ozone - harmful oxidants as byproducts of ozone use would likely still be present, and, need to be addressed.

 

[GARRIGA]

Careful cause this a massive rabbit hole with little if any application at the moment with reefing yet has been deployed in aquaculture including saltwater for both assistance with filtration as well as specialize treatments such improving the taste of salmon.

Why I’m going to conduct a series of test although without the ability to test affect on items such as DOC might be inconclusive and at best anecdotal as is much in this hobby and as with everything how applied matters more than its application. Such as treating a percentage of the water periodically to replace a WC vs 24/7 operation. It will literally sterilize water on contact which means potentially reducing pelagic BB beyond what UV alone might do and no clue what it does to various elements such as copper for example. Might not just be organic oxidation. ICP testing and the various new carbon based test being developed might shed a clue but like anything everyone’s mileage will vary as no two tanks are identical.

Also has an application in RODI as it breaks the chloramine bond thereby prolonging the use of carbon by isolating it to just dealing either chlorine along with removing pesticides and pathogens thereby possibly prolonging other components although not exactly sure what and to what extent. I’m familiar with how the process works but never bothered as to getting into the weeds with how it works. More of a big picture guy.

Lots of potential applications but does require a thorough grasp before applying and why I’m running test on a small system to move that knowledge along yet I feel I’ll likely still be naive for quite some time but shows promise unless I’m completely misunderstanding its base functions. Latter only explanation for why I’m not understanding why not more mainstream considering this is a hobby where many push the envelope trying to get one extra inch of success and concerns such as coral warfare seem to have no other remedy beyond a WC which I’m for me not happening. Something done because it shows success yet most clueless exactly why. With the advent of ICP testing and trace supplementation the only remaining explanation being that removed for which we haven’t found another remedy to solve it. We filter ammonia. We don’t change water to solve that anymore.

 

[GARRIGA]

Haven't read the articles in-full yet, but a couple articles (links) in my next post seem to dive in to combo of all 3.

As an aside, my initial thought was that UV-C & Ozone application in public pools is likely (much) stronger than what we would typically use for the hobbyist-sized aquarium and therefore some level of translation would need to be done to scale down for our purposes. However the fact that UV-C degrades ozone (potentially to negligible levels) before the treated water returns to the system means the possible benefit is two-fold; not only could post-treatment water require less (or no) carbon to absorb residual O3, but the O3 overdose risk could be decreased, meaning that a higher concentration of ozone could be utilized.

Although as I recall from both Jay's and Randy's articles on ozone - harmful oxidants as byproducts of ozone use would likely still be present, and, need to be addressed.

My thoughts being that one needs less carbon for that exact reason. UV-C dissipates ozone with the only need being OPO. Ask Randy recently if OH would solve OPO as well and his answer inconclusive in that he didn’t think it would but might. Easy enough to test for bromine as I’m told there are tests for that and one could run ozone without dissipating with UV-C. Confirm the presence of OPO. Then try eliminating it either OH or start either new water and run the same amount of ozone but this time either UV-C and see if there’s presence of OPO. Latter would require use of a corona discharge vs using a UV-C ozone combo.

Curious if peroxide forms any issues such OPO. For that reason alone plus fact one could the run UV 24/7 and dose as needed without the complexity of a corona discharge plus method of delivery such as a Venturi, skimmer or dedicated reactor makes it more pragmatic to execute. Why I’ll be testing that first and see if besides sterilizing portions of water if it can be dosed frequent enough to convert ammonia to nitrate for QT applications such as a hybrid TTM or emergency application. Have to see if Seneye still available so I can monitor ammonia by dosing ammonium chloride. I’m turning into the professor but still prefer Mary Anne

 

[naterealbig]

Careful cause this a massive rabbit hole with little if any application at the moment with reefing yet has been deployed in aquaculture including saltwater for both assistance with filtration as well as specialize treatments such improving the taste of salmon.

Why I’m going to conduct a series of test although without the ability to test affect on items such as DOC might be inconclusive and at best anecdotal as is much in this hobby and as with everything how applied matters more than its application. Such as treating a percentage of the water periodically to replace a WC vs 24/7 operation. It will literally sterilize water on contact which means potentially reducing pelagic BB beyond what UV alone might do and no clue what it does to various elements such as copper for example. Might not just be organic oxidation. ICP testing and the various new carbon based test being developed might shed a clue but like anything everyone’s mileage will vary as no two tanks are identical.

Agreed on all. See my previous post, along similar lines (i think we posted at the exact same time)...

Also has an application in RODI as it breaks the chloramine bond thereby prolonging the use of carbon by isolating it to just dealing either chlorine along with removing pesticides and pathogens thereby possibly prolonging other components

Yes!

Latter only explanation for why I’m not understanding why not more mainstream considering this is a hobby where many push the envelope trying to get one extra inch of success

I think combination:
1) Potential health/safety risks
2) Startup cost
3) Special required equipment: O3 Generator, O3 reactor (w/ regular carbon replacement) or at best, O3 'capable' skimmer, O3 safe tubing, fittings, Air dryer, etc
4) (Up until now) The potential of reducing the need for GAC to remove toxins, only to add the requirement back in for other reasons
5) Additional sustained mx of reactor, o3 generator, air dryer....
6) Lack of clear/simple directions for safe & effective use, and what specifically in our aquariums, does the o3 impact

Something done because it shows success yet most clueless exactly why. With the advent of ICP testing and trace supplementation the only remaining explanation being that removed for which we haven’t found another remedy to solve it. We filter ammonia. We don’t change water to solve that anymore.

 

[GARRIGA]

One other potential benefit to UV-C and peroxide being one may not need any GAC. Guessing it will also remove yellowing for which most tend to use ozone in the first place as it saves on the use of GAC for large tanks.

UV-C plus a dosing pump and black container housing food grade peroxide much more cost effective and less hassle to implement plus yet to see where peroxide or resulting OH are destructive such ozone where one needs ozone safe tubing and skimmer. Probably another question for Randy although over at HumbleFish already being used and last I checked didn’t see any mention.

Need to open an account and up ado them. Trying to read threads gets tedious and I have very specific inquiries. Especially in how exactly a peroxide bath works with versions pathogens as one of the paths that brought me here was using in tank baths to treat fish then dissipate the treatment. Less stress and less harsh medications in stress free application my thinking. Shotgun treatments not fan of and sometimes you need to treat a display and I don’t have the means to QT a 400g display. Would be close up shop at that point.

 

[naterealbig]

Easy enough to test for bromine as I’m told there are tests for that and one could run ozone without dissipating with UV-C. Confirm the presence of OPO. Then try eliminating it either OH or start either new water and run the same amount of ozone but this time either UV-C and see if there’s presence of OPO. Latter would require use of a corona discharge vs using a UV-C ozone combo.

Please ping me when/if you run those tests... Not a chemist, but happy to help in any way I can. (I'm an artist and analyst, in addition to my schooling). If nothing else I can crunch numbers, and draw pretty diagrams. I actually may be willing to contribute some capital to the testing effort, or perform (supervised) tests...

Curious if peroxide forms any issues such OPO. For that reason alone plus fact one could the run UV 24/7 and dose as needed without the complexity of a corona discharge plus method of delivery such as a Venturi, skimmer or dedicated reactor makes it more pragmatic to execute.

Very true, great point.

Why I’ll be testing that first and see if besides sterilizing portions of water if it can be dosed frequent enough to convert ammonia to nitrate for QT applications such as a hybrid TTM or emergency application.

If test results are favorable, could potentially be a substantial enhancement to current QT protocols...

Have to see if Seneye still available so I can monitor ammonia by dosing ammonium chloride. I’m turning into the professor but still prefer Mary Anne

Heh

 

[naterealbig]

One other potential benefit to UV-C and peroxide being one may not need any GAC. Guessing it will also remove yellowing for which most tend to use ozone in the first place as it saves on the use of GAC for large tanks.

Bucket test results from minimal o3 dose from a recent R2R thread:

Ozone generator

I’m thinking about running an ozone generator in my 90 gallon mix reef tank Need some help with ??? !!! What are the Pro and cons??? And also, do I get rid of my carbon media reactor?? Thank you in advance

www.reef2reef.com

UV-C plus a dosing pump and black container housing food grade peroxide much more cost effective and less hassle to implement plus yet to see where peroxide or resulting OH are destructive such ozone where one needs ozone safe tubing and skimmer. Probably another question for Randy although over at HumbleFish already being used and last I checked didn’t see any mention.

Yes, you bring up good points w/ H2O2 + UV (only)... curious what an H202 generator would run... Why dose when you could pump direct from a genny?

Need to open an account and up ado them. Trying to read threads gets tedious and I have very specific inquiries. Especially in how exactly a peroxide bath works with versions pathogens as one of the paths that brought me here was using in tank baths to treat fish then dissipate the treatment. Less stress and less harsh medications in stress free application my thinking. Shotgun treatments not fan of and sometimes you need to treat a display and I don’t have the means to QT a 400g display. Would be close up shop at that point.

Agree on all fronts

 

[GARRIGA]

Bucket test results from minimal o3 dose from a recent R2R thread:

Ozone generator

I’m thinking about running an ozone generator in my 90 gallon mix reef tank Need some help with ??? !!! What are the Pro and cons??? And also, do I get rid of my carbon media reactor?? Thank you in advance

www.reef2reef.com

Yes, you bring up good points w/ H2O2 + UV (only)... curious what an H202 generator would run... Why dose when you could pump direct from a genny?


Agree on all fronts

Generating my peroxide not in the cards or been researched other than using Sodium Percarbonate which is 2/3 soda ash and one third peroxide. That's a concern as I originally thought the ratio was reversed. Going to test it as perhaps the added buffer compensates for alkalinity loss (if any) but might be more sodium than I want to later correct being I'm trying to avoid water changes and relying on a calcium reactor and/or AFR.

 

[GARRIGA]

1) I only would use GAC as a "safety net" for excess ozone, proper dosing should be determined so that it isn't needed. Public aquarium systems are so large, that carbon use would be cost prohibitive, so they rely on careful dosing. For example, at my last facility we had two ORP controllers, with different set points and different locations in the system (at the effluent of the skimmer and then at the return from the system).

2) Sorry, I don't know of any

3) We use ozone instead of carbon on our main systems. We don't use carbon due to its cost, and its ability to cause HLLE in some fish species.

4) We use air dryer on all of of our ozone systems. If I recall, if moisture is already to enter the production chamber, nitric acids are produced.

5) All but one of our ozone units were designed and installed by engineering contractors. I've only bought a small Poseidon 200 unit off Amazon to run in a small system, so I can't really speak to different brands. I think we replaced it twice in about 8 years.

Forgot to ask, was carbon use reduced or completely absent and if completely absent did you ever test for ozone produced oxidants or perhaps amount of OPO produced small enough it didn't affect the organisms or something not known at the time and not thought of as a potential concern. I'm guessing for a public aquarium there would be a large amount of ozone used.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Forgot to ask, was carbon use reduced or completely absent and if completely absent did you ever test for ozone produced oxidants or perhaps amount of OPO produced small enough it didn't affect the organisms or something not known at the time and not thought of as a potential concern. I'm guessing for a public aquarium there would be a large amount of ozone used.

The only carbon use in the building is on a couple of reef exhibits, and pelleted is used, smallest amount as needed.

We test for ozone oxidants daily, as an added measure of safety. The warning limit is right at the level of resolution of our spectrophometer - 0.05 ppm. This results in some retesting to rule out measuring error.

I neglected to mention - the air above our largest skimmers is pushed through a catalytic destruct unit before venting outdoors. Our ozone generators are in a room with a “sniffer” alarm for any ozone leaks.

 

[X-37B]

I ran a Avast Marine ozone reactor for 8 months, from startup, on my current 150.
I took it offline and added a second skimmer and run ozone at a low setting of 3 on my posiedon generator about 3 weeks ago.
With the reactor I ran 1 liter of carbon, recommend by Avast, in the effluent chamber and running at 6 on the generator and maintained an orp of 400.

With the skimmer running at a lower ozone output I get as good of water clarity with less equipment and ozone, imo.
I do not run any carbon and the skimmer is in the return chamber.
I have ran it this way in the past with good results.
Also, I was running the Avast 24/7 and now run the skimmers ozone for 3-4 hours a day with similar observed results.