Poll.- best place for heater

[exnisstech]

My C will already have bio media, surf2, and a skimmer. And possibly rock rubble.

I am leaning towards B, it has enough room

I would go with B in that case.

 

[mfinn]

FYI I put D in as a joke. I would never put a heater in a section that has a
risk of running dry

My D area has my ato float switch and rodi return so it will never go dry and it is much bigger. It's where I keep my heater.

 

[VintageReefer]

I’m going with A

I think this is going to be my setup

A heater


B socks / meadia cups. Hollow Bio blocks


C skimmer + ATF


D return + ATO Float

Thoughts ?

 

[TehBrainz]

I’m going with A

I think this is going to be my setup

A heater


B socks / meadia cups. Hollow Bio blocks


C skimmer + ATF


D return + ATO Float

Thoughts ?

Looks good! Make sure your temperature probe for controller has a solid mount in the chamber. Other than that should work fine!

I love how clean new sump setups look

 

[TehBrainz]

On closer look, I think your heater has internal thermostat? It's hard to tell from the image.

 

[VintageReefer]

On closer look, I think your heater has internal thermostat? It's hard to tell from the image.

It’s just a finnex 500w titanium heating element. No internal thermometer

I bought this controller, I’ve been using these on other tanks for many years.

 

[TehBrainz]

It’s just a finnex 500w titanium heating element. No internal thermometer

I bought this controller, I’ve been using these on other tanks for many years.

Ok awesome!

 

[TehBrainz]

My only suggestion (then I'm good!)

Rotate the heater 90 degrees so that the suction cups are on the bottom glass. It will keep the heater from resting in the bottom or falling to the bottom if the suctions on the side glass fail

 

[VintageReefer]

My only suggestion (then I'm good!)

Rotate the heater 90 degrees so that the suction cups are on the bottom glass. It will keep the heater from resting in the bottom or falling to the bottom if the suctions on the side glass fail

It’s just a dry fit. I wouldn’t use the cage at all so there’s less cracks for detritus to get caught in, but that’s what the suction cups are attached to so I need to use the dumb cage. It will be “suction cup side down” once permanently set up. It’s a pain though because this section is too small for my hands. Might have to borrow the kitchen tongs

 

[TehBrainz]

It’s just a dry fit. I wouldn’t use the cage at all so there’s less cracks for detritus to get caught in, but that’s what the suction cups are attached to so I need to use the dumb cage. It will be “suction cup side down” once permanently set up. It’s a pain though because this section is too small for my hands. Might have to borrow the kitchen tongs

Not sure if it'll work due to spacing, but you might want to look into a custom heater rack from @melev. He's got some standard heater racks he makes out of acrylic that sit in the sump, but he makes custom products as well so you could even have it hang on the side. This would allow you to add another heater later down the road (if you wanted to), and also gives a nice easy way to install/remove the heater and even have a place to mount the probe.

Again, not sure if it would work for you, but I'm using this system and love it as I was dealing with suction cups failing and heaters sliding around when I was working in the sump.

Heater Hanger Bracket | Melev's Reef Inc.

shop.melevsreef.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

Rapid turnover with little heating is good, that means the whole tank is heated up little by little, and the heater is staying on until the whole tank is at temp, rather than a small amount being heated up all the way, turning the heater off and then mixing in and cooling down again and the heater turns on again.

Sure the water leaving the heater is colder, but there's more of it, carrying the same total energy


But really it doesn't matter all that much

For any reasonably sized heater it is not going to matter. You are not flash boiling water in a low turnover area and short cycling the heater. To that end, there is no real low turnover area in a sump like that. We can do the math if needed... but back of napkin.

1W = 3.41 BTU/h
500W = 1705 BTU/h
That is 28.41 BTU/m
It takes 1 BTU to raise 1 pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit.

I will leave the math to you, but a turnover rate of ~200gph would prevent the water in the heater chamber from noticeably rising at all compared to the inflow. At ~100gph the water in the heating chamber would be slightly higher than that of the inflow from the display, but not enough to short cycle the heater due to hysteresis.

Moreover even IF the water in the chamber does reach "temp" before the display, control hysteresis will prevent it from short cycling and one should never use the numbers printed on the heater as a guide, but rather the tank's actual equilibrium temperature. So the set point does not matter, it is the temperature of the display when the heater turns off that does. I hope that makes sense.

Simple rules for heater placement.

1 - don't use the on-board thermostat. Use an external controller manually set to turn the heater off just above the controller's set point. This will act as a fail-safe.

2 - the temp probe and heater MUST be in the same compartment with the probe just upstream of the heating element. No exceptions.

3 - the heater MUST be in a section of the sump where the water level DOES NOT fluctuate and the heater's head SHOULD be above the water level with the envelope FULLY submerged.

3a - if possible it would better to place the heater through the sump wall using a bulkhead and compression glan.


Follow these simple rules and you virtually eliminate most causes of heater failure.

In this case A or C would be the choice, but the problem with C is that while the water level may not drop, it may rise and submerge the heater head. That leaves A is the best place. There is no way that the water level in A ever drops or rises. Secure the heater there with its head just above the water level of the weir.

 

[VintageReefer]

For any reasonably sized heater it is not going to matter. You are not flash boiling water in a low turnover area and short cycling the heater.

Simple rules for heater placement.

1 - don't use the on-board thermostat. Use an external controller manually set to turn the heater off just above the controller's set point. This will act as a fail-safe.

2 - the temp probe and heater MUST be in the same compartment with the probe just upstream of the heating element. No exceptions.

3 - the heater MUST be in a section of the sump where the water level DOES NOT fluctuate and the heater's head SHOULD be above the water level with the envelope FULLY submerged.

3a - if possible it would better to place the heater through the sump wall using a bulkhead and compression glan.


Follow these simple rules and you virtually eliminate most causes of heater failure.

In this case A or C would be the choice, but the problem with C is that while the water level may not drop, it may rise and submerge the heater head. That leaves A is the best place. There is no way that the water level in A ever drops or rises. Secure the heater there with its head just above the water level of the weir.

Thank you! I was going to go with A but with the heater horizontal on the bottom. What do you mean by the heaters head, where the cord connects? Why would they need to be above the water. That sounds like it’s a brand specific thing

This is the heater, it has no controller or thermostat built in

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you! I was going to go with A but with the heater horizontal on the bottom. What do you mean by the heaters head, where the cord connects? Why would they need to be above the water. That sounds like it’s a brand specific thing

This is the heater, it has no controller or thermostat built in

Yes, where the power cord and/or thermostat are located. Expansion and contraction of the envelope (due to heating cycles) can eventually break the epoxy seal and allow water into the envelope. On older heaters, this was a rubber stopper and silicone or other glue.

In any case, just a TINY amount of moisture will create steam in the envelope and that steam will expand and further compromise the seal or simply pop the envelope in the case of a glass heater.

BTW - Glass heaters are not ideal because the heating elements can cause uneven stress in the glass over repeated cycles and this thermal stress can eventually cause the glass to crack even if you don't do anything dumb.

So Titanium envelopes are better (let's ignore grounding arguments for or against grounded envelopes) and those envelopes are best when the submerged end is titanium, not a "cap" and the cord end is DRY. As I said, I prefer a bulkhead type setup through the sump wall, but an area like "A" in the poll is also great. The water level cannot rise or fall, so the top of the heater can stay dry and the rest of the heater submerged.

And yes - rounded end titanium heaters appear to have turned into unicorns... but even so, submerging only (1) epoxy plugged end is half the risk of submerging both.

If going with glass - I would certainly use something with a brand name borosilicate glass (heat resistant) like Duran or even better a true quartz tube. The quartz will handle heat cycles even better (if never run dry) but is more brittle so must be handled with more care.

 

[VintageReefer]

If the heater is titanium and vertical in A, where would you recommend the controllers probe? On the bottom along the path (in the channel) from A to B?

 

[BeanAnimal]

If the heater is titanium and vertical in A, where would you recommend the controllers probe? On the bottom along the path (in the channel) from A to B?

Ideally you want it upstream, but in that high of a turnover area it doesn't matter.

If it is immediately downstream in close proximity and directly in the path of flow, it is possible that it will provide false high readings.

I prefer to attach the probes somewhat shallow to prevent pressure induced leaks around the cord as well.... A titanium or stainless heater well would be ideal (to keep probe fully dry), but beyond the means of most casual reefers.

 

[VintageReefer]

If the heater is vertical, on a wall, at the surface of chamber A would the bottom of A be considered upstream, as the display drain tubes would bring display water past the heater and dispense in the middle of A with downward force?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes - and I don't think it matters too much due to the extremely high flow there compared to the other locations.

The reason we want it in the same compartment is so that when the return is off, the water in that chamber does not drastically overheat and damage fauna when the pump is turned back on.

 

[VintageReefer]

Yes - and I don't think it matters too much due to the extremely high flow there compared to the other locations.

The reason we want it in the same compartment is so that when the return is off, the water in that chamber does not drastically overheat and damage fauna when the pump is turned back on.

Happens in my current setup, I have heater in the equal of A and the probe in the refugium area. My current A is much bigger, because it’s also a skimmer section. Works great…until you turn off the return pump for a few minutes. I’m gonna move that probe now

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Bruttall]

4 chamber sump, far right section holds the bio media and heaters which is also the first chamber the water drains into from tank or "A" from your diagram.