QT batch plan insight

[Thowninja]

Starting this off with this is not an emergency, so please dedicate time and mental energy to other threads
I had a battle with Ich last year that wiped out a bunch of my fish. I transferred survivors to a separate tank and ran Hyposalinity. After going fallow for over 80 days I swear there is still something (Maybe more than one?) in my tank that pops up from time time. I see the occasional white spot that makes me dread ich, and additionally maybe something bacterial? Fish are fat and act normal otherwise. That leads me to my current situation.
I have moved into an apartment and my reef system (Along with fish) are back at my parents house. I have 2 qt’d fish (Purchased from a QT vendor) in my apartment tank. I’d like to fully wipe out disease across my other systems.

Current plan:
I have a Nuvo 20 that I’m going to run as a dedicated copper QT.
I’m going to clean my fish in batches of probably 2 at a time (I have 6 total, but I’ve never done medicated QT before, nor do I want to risk the ammonia spike from doing too many at a time)
After reading a disgusting amount of threads here and other forums ((Wow, there are A LOT of different methodologies and beliefs regarding QT!!)) I think I’m settling on this-
First 2 fish go into QT with seeded media. I have several wrasses so one of my big questions lies here.. I have seeded sand from a tank that has been fallow since the first ordeal. It is live sand—Should i put a Tupperware of this into the QT tank and adjust copper levels accordingly? Or should I get a non-reef sand like silica for the wrasses?
Bring copper up over the course of a few days-(Wrasse question again, I know they’re more sensitive, I’m using copper power. Should I still shoot for 2.25-2.5 range? I’m getting mixed signals about the toxicity of copper on wrasses) additionally, should I do all of my wrasses at once since they require the slowest ramp? Ideally I’d like to do 1 per batch if possible, so 3 separate 14 day periods.
14 days at therapeutic levels with no signs of disease.
Transfer to 25 gallon sumped observational tank for additional 14 days. General cure administered either during copper treatment, or in observation tank.
On transfer day to OT, do a 50% water change to drop copper back down and remove nitrate, stress hormone, etc. Next batch of fish goes into QT. Raise copper again over several days. Meanwhile after 14 days of observation the clean fish go to apartment tank. This leaves a rolling restart of like 2-5 days between batches depending on how long I take to bring copper back up therapeutic.
—-
If all goes well we’re looking at a little over 1.5 month of Copper QT in total across the 3 batches, and about 2 months total for full clean. Then the original reef system gets a DEEP clean, stir sand bed, vac sump etc. Fallow for a MINIMUM of 90 days.

Does this sound like a solid plan? Wipe out all common disease and maintain the best biosecurity vs subjecting my fish to 30+ days of copper?
Should I dose the general cure at the same time as copper to bang it out? Or leave it for the OT tank?
Airstones will be added to both.
For biosecurity purposes, I will have several sets of “Burn” nets that will get tossed after I’m done with this. And in between tank transfers fish will make a pitstop in bucket (Non-medicated, just as a rinse for potential sand, etc).
If you see any blatant flaws in this or have insight I’d appreciate it. You guys saved my tank on the last go around, so I’m trying to do it right with medication this time and really lock this down. Nothing will ever be added to one of my DTs without quarantine going forward, down to every last drop of water, shell, sand, rock, frag, etc.
Appreciate your time and I apologize for the novel, thank you for attending my ted talk lol. I need to make it to a trade show and get ya’ll some coffee and beer!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Starting this off with this is not an emergency, so please dedicate time and mental energy to other threads
I had a battle with Ich last year that wiped out a bunch of my fish. I transferred survivors to a separate tank and ran Hyposalinity. After going fallow for over 80 days I swear there is still something (Maybe more than one?) in my tank that pops up from time time. I see the occasional white spot that makes me dread ich, and additionally maybe something bacterial? Fish are fat and act normal otherwise. That leads me to my current situation.
I have moved into an apartment and my reef system (Along with fish) are back at my parents house. I have 2 qt’d fish (Purchased from a QT vendor) in my apartment tank. I’d like to fully wipe out disease across my other systems.

Current plan:
I have a Nuvo 20 that I’m going to run as a dedicated copper QT.
I’m going to clean my fish in batches of probably 2 at a time (I have 6 total, but I’ve never done medicated QT before, nor do I want to risk the ammonia spike from doing too many at a time)
After reading a disgusting amount of threads here and other forums ((Wow, there are A LOT of different methodologies and beliefs regarding QT!!)) I think I’m settling on this-
First 2 fish go into QT with seeded media. I have several wrasses so one of my big questions lies here.. I have seeded sand from a tank that has been fallow since the first ordeal. It is live sand—Should i put a Tupperware of this into the QT tank and adjust copper levels accordingly? Or should I get a non-reef sand like silica for the wrasses?
Bring copper up over the course of a few days-(Wrasse question again, I know they’re more sensitive, I’m using copper power. Should I still shoot for 2.25-2.5 range? I’m getting mixed signals about the toxicity of copper on wrasses) additionally, should I do all of my wrasses at once since they require the slowest ramp? Ideally I’d like to do 1 per batch if possible, so 3 separate 14 day periods.
14 days at therapeutic levels with no signs of disease.
Transfer to 25 gallon sumped observational tank for additional 14 days. General cure administered either during copper treatment, or in observation tank.
On transfer day to OT, do a 50% water change to drop copper back down and remove nitrate, stress hormone, etc. Next batch of fish goes into QT. Raise copper again over several days. Meanwhile after 14 days of observation the clean fish go to apartment tank. This leaves a rolling restart of like 2-5 days between batches depending on how long I take to bring copper back up therapeutic.
—-
If all goes well we’re looking at a little over 1.5 month of Copper QT in total across the 3 batches, and about 2 months total for full clean. Then the original reef system gets a DEEP clean, stir sand bed, vac sump etc. Fallow for a MINIMUM of 90 days.

Does this sound like a solid plan? Wipe out all common disease and maintain the best biosecurity vs subjecting my fish to 30+ days of copper?
Should I dose the general cure at the same time as copper to bang it out? Or leave it for the OT tank?
Airstones will be added to both.
For biosecurity purposes, I will have several sets of “Burn” nets that will get tossed after I’m done with this. And in between tank transfers fish will make a pitstop in bucket (Non-medicated, just as a rinse for potential sand, etc).
If you see any blatant flaws in this or have insight I’d appreciate it. You guys saved my tank on the last go around, so I’m trying to do it right with medication this time and really lock this down. Nothing will ever be added to one of my DTs without quarantine going forward, down to every last drop of water, shell, sand, rock, frag, etc.
Appreciate your time and I apologize for the novel, thank you for attending my ted talk lol. I need to make it to a trade show and get ya’ll some coffee and beer!

Our grandson just came over, so all I can do is get you started in this discussion:

Well established sponge filters work better than seeded substrate, but they take time to develop.

Non-reef sand like silica or quartz, in a bowl for the wrasses is best for copper treatments.

You shouldn't need to run copper longer than 30 days, some fish may react poorly to extended copper treatments, but Coppersafe is not too bad in that regard.

I think you need to consider some sort of fluke treatment in the mix.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Starting this off with this is not an emergency, so please dedicate time and mental energy to other threads
I had a battle with Ich last year that wiped out a bunch of my fish. I transferred survivors to a separate tank and ran Hyposalinity. After going fallow for over 80 days I swear there is still something (Maybe more than one?) in my tank that pops up from time time. I see the occasional white spot that makes me dread ich, and additionally maybe something bacterial? Fish are fat and act normal otherwise. That leads me to my current situation.
I have moved into an apartment and my reef system (Along with fish) are back at my parents house. I have 2 qt’d fish (Purchased from a QT vendor) in my apartment tank. I’d like to fully wipe out disease across my other systems.

Current plan:
I have a Nuvo 20 that I’m going to run as a dedicated copper QT.
I’m going to clean my fish in batches of probably 2 at a time (I have 6 total, but I’ve never done medicated QT before, nor do I want to risk the ammonia spike from doing too many at a time)
After reading a disgusting amount of threads here and other forums ((Wow, there are A LOT of different methodologies and beliefs regarding QT!!)) I think I’m settling on this-
First 2 fish go into QT with seeded media. I have several wrasses so one of my big questions lies here.. I have seeded sand from a tank that has been fallow since the first ordeal. It is live sand—Should i put a Tupperware of this into the QT tank and adjust copper levels accordingly? Or should I get a non-reef sand like silica for the wrasses?
Bring copper up over the course of a few days-(Wrasse question again, I know they’re more sensitive, I’m using copper power. Should I still shoot for 2.25-2.5 range? I’m getting mixed signals about the toxicity of copper on wrasses) additionally, should I do all of my wrasses at once since they require the slowest ramp? Ideally I’d like to do 1 per batch if possible, so 3 separate 14 day periods.
14 days at therapeutic levels with no signs of disease.
Transfer to 25 gallon sumped observational tank for additional 14 days. General cure administered either during copper treatment, or in observation tank.
On transfer day to OT, do a 50% water change to drop copper back down and remove nitrate, stress hormone, etc. Next batch of fish goes into QT. Raise copper again over several days. Meanwhile after 14 days of observation the clean fish go to apartment tank. This leaves a rolling restart of like 2-5 days between batches depending on how long I take to bring copper back up therapeutic.
—-
If all goes well we’re looking at a little over 1.5 month of Copper QT in total across the 3 batches, and about 2 months total for full clean. Then the original reef system gets a DEEP clean, stir sand bed, vac sump etc. Fallow for a MINIMUM of 90 days.

Does this sound like a solid plan? Wipe out all common disease and maintain the best biosecurity vs subjecting my fish to 30+ days of copper?
Should I dose the general cure at the same time as copper to bang it out? Or leave it for the OT tank?
Airstones will be added to both.
For biosecurity purposes, I will have several sets of “Burn” nets that will get tossed after I’m done with this. And in between tank transfers fish will make a pitstop in bucket (Non-medicated, just as a rinse for potential sand, etc).
If you see any blatant flaws in this or have insight I’d appreciate it. You guys saved my tank on the last go around, so I’m trying to do it right with medication this time and really lock this down. Nothing will ever be added to one of my DTs without quarantine going forward, down to every last drop of water, shell, sand, rock, frag, etc.
Appreciate your time and I apologize for the novel, thank you for attending my ted talk lol. I need to make it to a trade show and get ya’ll some coffee and beer!

I see Jay responded while im typing. . . Yes 2.15 - 2.25ppm for 30 days, no more than 35 days and monitor ammonia levels. Run air stone during treatment and any sand best in a deep bowl or two. I would not add live sand as bacteria will likely be affected. Do NOT bring copper up over a few days known as ramping which allows a given disease to gain hold of the fish, often not ending well.
Observation burns valuable time for treatment again allowing disease to take hold of a fish. Do not mix General cure with coppersafe but you can add After a water change and after the 30 day copper period.

 

[Thowninja]

Our grandson just came over, so all I can do is get you started in this discussion:

Well established sponge filters work better than seeded substrate, but they take time to develop.

Non-reef sand like silica or quartz, in a bowl for the wrasses is best for copper treatments.

You shouldn't need to run copper longer than 30 days, some fish may react poorly to extended copper treatments, but Coppersafe is not too bad in that regard.

I think you need to consider some sort of fluke treatment in the mix.

Hi Jay! My Girlfriend saw me typing this novel out and said “No one is going to respond to that” and I said, “I bet you Jay will! He’s getting wined and dined by me when I meet him in person”, and look at that, you responded SECONDS after lol. I really appreciate you!

I will grab spongefilters this week and start seeding with a mix of bottled bacteria and media I already have.

The plan is copper power for 14 days at therapeutic levels before transferring to observation tank for subsequent 14 days

General cure has metro and Prazi (Which if my research is correct, will handle the flukes). The main question with that is, is it safe/advisable to use general cure at the same time as copper as long as heavy aeration is added? Or should I hold off until the fish are in the OT tank and leave the QT as strictly copper?

Again, appreciate your time, enjoy your family time!!

 

[Thowninja]

I see Jay responded while im typing. . . Yes 2.15 - 2.25ppm for 30 days, no more than 35 days and monitor ammonia levels. Run air stone during treatment and any sand best in a deep bowl or two. I would not add live sand as bacteria will likely be affected. Do NOT bring copper up over a few days known as ramping which allows a given disease to gain hold of the fish, often not ending well.
Observation burns valuable time for treatment again allowing disease to take hold of a fish. Do not mix General cure with coppersafe but you can add After a water change and after the 30 day copper period.

And number two! You helped me last time as well, thank you!!
I was planning on copper power for 14 days at therapeutic levels and as long as no sign of illness, then transfer to sterile tank to hit them with general cure. Do you think even the wrasses will be ok without a ramp up? Should I just plop and drop into the full therapeutic levels? There is not an active outbreak going on, this is more as a precaution as I’ve seen stuff pop up on my fish here and there even after doing the hypo and DT fallow period earlier last year.
Thank you for all that you do!!

 

[MnFish1]

Your copper treatment should be 30 days - not 14. I think the wrasses will be ok with no ramp up. I would then treat them with the usual prazipro protocol (which is 2 treatments 1 at day 1 the second 8 days later. I would not necessarily 'hit' them with General cure - unless you see a reason to use it - the less antibiotics one uses the less toxicity that may become apparent. Generally speaking, treating fish in batches is not a good idea - as compared to doing all at once in the same tank - but understand your concerns about ammonia, etc. I'm going to go through your original post and respond to each thing as well.

 

[vetteguy53081]

And number two! You helped me last time as well, thank you!!
I was planning on copper power for 14 days at therapeutic levels and as long as no sign of illness, then transfer to sterile tank to hit them with general cure. Do you think even the wrasses will be ok without a ramp up? Should I just plop and drop into the full therapeutic levels? There is not an active outbreak going on, this is more as a precaution as I’ve seen stuff pop up on my fish here and there even after doing the hypo and DT fallow period earlier last year.
Thank you for all that you do!!

Again for reasons given, Do not ramp up but get to level in 24 hours and 30 days, no less. Often, a breakout will occur when least expected and reason to run it out the full 30 days and many diseases are opportunistic. Wrasses are tricky when it comes to infections and best is Prevention to disallow need for exposure later. Again, general cure can be used AFTER the 30 days of coppersafe monitored with Hanna brand copper kit and a water change and you can then switch to General cure- Do not mix with coppersafe.

 

[MnFish1]

Starting this off with this is not an emergency, so please dedicate time and mental energy to other threads
I had a battle with Ich last year that wiped out a bunch of my fish. I transferred survivors to a separate tank and ran Hyposalinity. After going fallow for over 80 days I swear there is still something (Maybe more than one?) in my tank that pops up from time time. I see the occasional white spot that makes me dread ich, and additionally maybe something bacterial? Fish are fat and act normal otherwise. That leads me to my current situation.

Can you explain how long you did hypo salinity? I doubt a bacterial issue that would be 'popping up' randomly. If you see ich, you probably have it - which means I would treat your tank as if it has ich.

I have moved into an apartment and my reef system (Along with fish) are back at my parents house. I have 2 qt’d fish (Purchased from a QT vendor) in my apartment tank. I’d like to fully wipe out disease across my other systems.

I don't understand - how many 'systems' do you have - are you going to be putting all of the fish into one place after your QT process?

Current plan:
I have a Nuvo 20 that I’m going to run as a dedicated copper QT.
I’m going to clean my fish in batches of probably 2 at a time (I have 6 total, but I’ve never done medicated QT before, nor do I want to risk the ammonia spike from doing too many at a time)

What kind of fish - are you sure you can't do all at once? With water changes/ammonia checks? This is by far the best

After reading a disgusting amount of threads here and other forums ((Wow, there are A LOT of different methodologies and beliefs regarding QT!!)) I think I’m settling on this-
First 2 fish go into QT with seeded media. I have several wrasses so one of my big questions lies here.. I have seeded sand from a tank that has been fallow since the first ordeal. It is live sand—Should i put a Tupperware of this into the QT tank and adjust copper levels accordingly? Or should I get a non-reef sand like silica for the wrasses?
Bring copper up over the course of a few days-(Wrasse question again, I know they’re more sensitive, I’m using copper power. Should I still shoot for 2.25-2.5 range? I’m getting mixed signals about the toxicity of copper on wrasses) additionally, should I do all of my wrasses at once since they require the slowest ramp?

Wrasses do ok with chelated copper without a ramp up - in most cases. Sand - unless it's inert - will adsorb copper and make treatment more difficult - you should use (as jay suggested) - an inert sand. Additionally, you can use a sponge filter - after seeding with a bottled bacteria (like Fritz 9000), etc. What 'seeded media are you using' - if it's not inert - and may remove copper it will be extremely difficult.

Ideally I’d like to do 1 per batch if possible, so 3 separate 14 day periods.
14 days at therapeutic levels with no signs of disease.
Transfer to 25 gallon sumped observational tank for additional 14 days. General cure administered either during copper treatment, or in observation tank.

In general as already said - it's far better to try to do all the fish at once. 30 days of copper is our protocol - followed by Prazipro 2 treatments 8 days apart. This is the best way iMHO - to insure that all of the work you're doing is going to be a success. As you've already seen - a 14 day observation period may not be enough (since ich returned to your tank - and can be intermittent)

On transfer day to OT, do a 50% water change to drop copper back down and remove nitrate, stress hormone, etc. Next batch of fish goes into QT. Raise copper again over several days.

I would completely change the water between batches - and re-adjust copper - without ramping. However, since you're not 'treating' an active disease (i.e. you don't see disease on your fish now) - ramping is fine.

Meanwhile after 14 days of observation the clean fish go to apartment tank. This leaves a rolling restart of like 2-5 days between batches depending on how long I take to bring copper back up therapeutic.

See above.

—-
If all goes well we’re looking at a little over 1.5 month of Copper QT in total across the 3 batches, and about 2 months total for full clean. Then the original reef system gets a DEEP clean, stir sand bed, vac sump etc. Fallow for a MINIMUM of 90 days.

I don't understand this. Why can't you do this while you're doing the copper, etc.

Does this sound like a solid plan? Wipe out all common disease and maintain the best biosecurity vs subjecting my fish to 30+ days of copper?

No - I would either not do it - or do 30 days - since you're saying you have ich in your tank there is no reason to do 14 vs 30 days.

Should I dose the general cure at the same time as copper to bang it out? Or leave it for the OT tank?
Airstones will be added to both.

I would leave it out. But. you should use prazipro instead - 2 treatments 8 days apart. I would not add it with copper. Yes to the air stones

For biosecurity purposes, I will have several sets of “Burn” nets that will get tossed after I’m done with this. And in between tank transfers fish will make a pitstop in bucket (Non-medicated, just as a rinse for potential sand, etc).
If you see any blatant flaws in this or have insight I’d appreciate it.

I think you may be overdoing it - but - your idea is fine.

You guys saved my tank on the last go around, so I’m trying to do it right with medication this time and really lock this down. Nothing will ever be added to one of my DTs without quarantine going forward, down to every last drop of water, shell, sand, rock, frag, etc.
Appreciate your time and I apologize for the novel, thank you for attending my ted talk lol. I need to make it to a trade show and get ya’ll some coffee and beer!

The novel is fine - can you show a picture of your tank and fish - and if any of them have lesions - show those as well?

 

[Thowninja]

Can you explain how long you did hypo salinity? I doubt a bacterial issue that would be 'popping up' randomly. If you see ich, you probably have it - which means I would treat your tank as if it has ich.

Wow, thank you for the thorough response!
I did hypo 1.009 with calibrated Milwaukee digital refractometer calibrated with Rodi 0 TDS and calibration fluid (In addition to cross referencing analog refractometer and a Hanna salinity tester. I ran hypo for 45 days. During that time my reef tank was fallow (And left fallow for over 76 days) separate room. You actually helped steer my course when I was doing this hypo treatment.

I don't understand - how many 'systems' do you have - are you going to be putting all of the fish into one place after your QT process?

I have 3 systems running currently and there would be a 4th thrown into the mix here.
System 1- Reef tank that went fallow and has the fish that previously went through hypo. This is my coral system so no medications here.
System 2- Nuvo 20 AIO that I would be using as copper QT. Currently offline. Would be in separate room from any other tank
System 3 is an a currently running anemone farm that I have. Fishless. These anemones would be moved over to system 4 so it would essentially just be cycled sand and rock without anything else. (Yet another separate room)
System 4 is my apartment tank. It has the hypo rock that was cycled and now has inverts, a singular clownfish, and starry blenny. All of the livestock was purchased QT’d

What kind of fish - are you sure you can't do all at once? With water changes/ammonia checks? This is by far the best

Adult clownfish, 3 wrasses (adults), Medium Tomini Tang, and a Gem tang. I’d prefer to not do all at once because I don’t have a tank big enough to support them all with medications. Hence the batch bit, I don’t have a deadline here, so I could literally do a singular fish at a time if need be, I just figured I’d do it like this: Batch 1- 1 clown, 1 wrasse. Batch 2- 1 wrasse 1 tang, batch 3 1 wrasse 1 tang. If I’m doing the 30 days copper like mentioned I would probably drop this to 2 batches, keeping tangs separate.

Wrasses do ok with chelated copper without a ramp up - in most cases. Sand - unless it's inert - will adsorb copper and make treatment more difficult - you should use (as jay suggested) - an inert sand. Additionally, you can use a sponge filter - after seeding with a bottled bacteria (like Fritz 9000), etc. What 'seeded media are you using' - if it's not inert - and may remove copper it will be extremely difficult.

I have copper power on hand. I’m looking at silica based sand as to not absorb copper. I have bottled bacteria on hand and can pre cycle with pure ammonia separately if need be.
I have Seachem matrix, several separate bags

In general as already said - it's far better to try to do all the fish at once. 30 days of copper is our protocol - followed by Prazipro 2 treatments 8 days apart. This is the best way iMHO - to insure that all of the work you're doing is going to be a success. As you've already seen - a 14 day observation period may not be enough (since ich returned to your tank - and can be intermittent)

Understood! I was trying to have my fish in copper for the least amount of time via the 14 day clean and then transfer to OT, but it sounds like 30 days may be better (For ensuring it worked).
I did not use copper last time, just hypo and fallow. Unsure where I went wrong since I ran proper salinity and went fallow. That’s why I’m going medicated this time around.

I would completely change the water between batches - and re-adjust copper - without ramping. However, since you're not 'treating' an active disease (i.e. you don't see disease on your fish now) - ramping is fine.

Can and will do!

See above.

I don't understand this. Why can't you do this while you're doing the copper, etc.

^ I could if I do all my fish at once, but like mentioned above I’d prefer batches both due to size/space, and ultimately I have never done meds before so I’m slightly terrified I’m going to kill my fish.. That’s part of why I’m mentioning taking it slow in batches. Again, I have no timeline here, I can take my time

No - I would either not do it - or do 30 days - since you're saying you have ich in your tank there is no reason to do 14 vs 30 days.

Understood!

I would leave it out. But. you should use prazipro instead - 2 treatments 8 days apart. I would not add it with copper. Yes to the air stones

Thank you!

I think you may be overdoing it - but - your idea is fine.

Yes, I’m definitely over doing it, both with the execution and timeline, but I am trying to be fully rid of disease going forward tot he best of my ability.

The novel is fine - can you show a picture of your tank and fish - and if any of them have lesions - show those as well?

Yes, I will get some pics asap! I’m not at the house with the reef tank (Eyeballing through webcam but it won’t show enough detail for you). I will try to get some pics of the fish, but as mentioned there usually isn’t an active breakout happening. ((The lack of active outbreak is the only reason I haven’t sent off a sample to aquabio testing lab.. Idk if what ever parasite/infection I have would actually show up on the test if it’s not during an active outbreak. Any insight on that?))

Thank you, thank you, thank you!