Reef zlements issue, dosing huge amounts

[Felix_Brown]

I did not read every word of it, but they do pack a lot of correct science into it, including a correct debunking of the Fauna Marin claims of hydroxide dosing causing problems. Most of what I read is well written and explained.

They still seem to use confusing comments about dKH in a liter of supplement, and they give what I consider are unsubstantiated assertions about certain trace elements with no known biological requirement such as rubidium and barium.

Hi Randy,

As a long-time user of Reef Zlements and also a massive fan of yours, Randy, as I truly believe you have contributed significantly to the hobby over the years, I actually reached out to them regarding the points you raised given that, every time I spoke to them, they seemed to know what they are talking about.

They acknowledged that the way they present the alkalinity in their products could be better. For example, they mentioned that the correct way would be to say that the alkalinity in their Part 1 is around 3570 meq/L, but rightly or wrongly, they’ve always written it the way they have to allow reefers to more easily compare their solution with others on the market.

They didn’t mention other brands but, I had a look around and found for example ATI Essentials Plus is described as “Highly concentrated (28.000 °dKH and 200.000 mg calcium per set), ready to use” or Oceamo (which I understand you have great respect for Christoph who is very active in R2R) also state: “1 liter DUO contains 10 000 dKH units”.

So, I suspect the reason is as they say just to allow people to directly compare their product to their competitors.

I also brought the traces up in the conversation and they assured me that every assertion they make about these elements is backed by peer-reviewed, published research. They referenced these studies at the bottom of the manual, so while some elements may not seem essential at first glance, they’re relying on credible sources to support their claims. I found that pretty reassuring in all honesty.

For sure having read the H2P comprehensive manual now for 3 times, I cannot find anything like it from a vendor so far, as it is extremely comprehensive, going from the pre-requirements to set up a proper tank to water changes, dosing, nutrients, etc. I personally think we are lucky to have a brand like them in the UK!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy,

As a long-time user of Reef Zlements and also a massive fan of yours, Randy, as I truly believe you have contributed significantly to the hobby over the years, I actually reached out to them regarding the points you raised given that, every time I spoke to them, they seemed to know what they are talking about.

They acknowledged that the way they present the alkalinity in their products could be better. For example, they mentioned that the correct way would be to say that the alkalinity in their Part 1 is around 3570 meq/L, but rightly or wrongly, they’ve always written it the way they have to allow reefers to more easily compare their solution with others on the market.

They didn’t mention other brands but, I had a look around and found for example ATI Essentials Plus is described as “Highly concentrated (28.000 °dKH and 200.000 mg calcium per set), ready to use” or Oceamo (which I understand you have great respect for Christoph who is very active in R2R) also state: “1 liter DUO contains 10 000 dKH units”.

So, I suspect the reason is as they say just to allow people to directly compare their product to their competitors.

I also brought the traces up in the conversation and they assured me that every assertion they make about these elements is backed by peer-reviewed, published research. They referenced these studies at the bottom of the manual, so while some elements may not seem essential at first glance, they’re relying on credible sources to support their claims. I found that pretty reassuring in all honesty.

For sure having read the H2P comprehensive manual now for 3 times, I cannot find anything like it from a vendor so far, as it is extremely comprehensive, going from the pre-requirements to set up a proper tank to water changes, dosing, nutrients, etc. I personally think we are lucky to have a brand like them in the UK!

Thanks. I appreciate the comments.

For some reason, Europeans often get the units of measure confused in statements like dKH per L. Maybe it us a translation issue. I really don’t know why they do it.

I do not believe there are any suitable studies that show a requirement for rubidium or barium, but I understand some in the hobby think otherwise.

 

[ReneReef]

Thanks. I appreciate the comments.

For some reason, Europeans often get the units of measure confused in statements like dKH per L. Maybe it us a translation issue. I really don’t know why they do it.

I do not believe there are any suitable studies that show a requirement for rubidium or barium, but I understand some in the hobby think otherwise.

In this hobby we tend to express alk in KH. Which is incorrect, but here we are.
(Is this an Euorean thing? I don’t think.)

I think it’s good that a manufacturer labels its products in a way that the average hobbyist understands. At the moment that is KH and not meq/L.

Even Tropic Marin uses KH/L (2800) for their Original Balling now. Despite it being a solution of exactly 1 meq/L.

So, the KH per Liter is just to give hobbyists a figure they recognise/understand and for convenience of easy dose calculation.

If I have a tank with a 500 Liter watervolume that uses 2 KH per day, that is 2*500=1000 KH units.

Then having a dosing solution containing 10,000 “KH/L”, I can easily calculate that I need to dose 1000/10000=0.1 Liter a day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In this hobby we tend to express alk in KH. Which is incorrect, but here we are.
(Is this an Euorean thing? I don’t think.)

I think it’s good that a manufacturer labels its products in a way that the average hobbyist understands. At the moment that is KH and not meq/L.

Even Tropic Marin uses KH/L (2800) for their Original Balling now. Despite it being a solution of exactly 1 meq/L.

So, the KH per Liter is just to give hobbyists a figure they recognise/understand and for convenience of easy dose calculation.

If I have a tank with a 500 Liter watervolume that uses 2 KH per day, that is 2*500=1000 KH units.

Then having a dosing solution containing 10,000 “KH/L”, I can easily calculate that I need to dose 1000/10000=0.1 Liter a day.

I think you are misunderstanding many of my comments.

dKH is a perfectly acceptable unit of measure.

dKH per unit volume is never an acceptable unit of measure of anything. That is the problem I am pointing out. It can lead to very serious misunderstandings, regardless of your claim that it makes calculations “easier”. I could not understand the Tropic Marin claim of what 2,5000 dKH per 500 mL actually meant and had to contact them to find out. Do you know without asking? It’s ambiguous because it is not a correct unit of measure.

The entire ocean is about 6-7 dKH. One mL of that same ocean water is still 6-7 dKH. The alkalinity per unit volume is already built into it.

If I claim a horse can run at a speed of 60 mph per minute, what does that even mean? Its the same with dKH per volume.

 

[ReneReef]

I think you are misunderstanding many of my comments.

dKH is a perfectly acceptable unit of measure.

dKH per unit volume is never an acceptable unit of measure of anything. That is the problem I am pointing out. It can lead to very serious misunderstandings, regardless of your claim that it makes calculations “easier”. I could not understand the Tropic Marin claim of what 2,5000 dKH per 500 mL actually meant and had to contact them to find out. Do you know without asking? It’s ambiguous because it is not a correct unit of measure.

The entire ocean is about 6-7 dKH. One mL of that same ocean water is still 6-7 dKH. The alkalinity per unit volume is already built into it.

If I claim a horse can run at a speed of 60 mph per minute, what does that even mean? Its the same with dKH per volume.

Yes, I get what you are saying.
But then, in stead of acting all confused, just tell us what to do that is correct.

I understand what the manufacturers mean with it and I can use it just fine. I have never heard someone with no or limited chemistry knowledge be confused by it. So I see no problem.

I know in the unit-verse it makes no sense what so ever. But, my reef aquarium is my hobby not my profession. And it’s a hobby full of way bigger issues. So I choose to ignore this one.

Just like the use of par as the unit of par.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I get what you are saying.
But then, in stead of acting all confused, just tell us what to do that is correct.

I understand what the manufacturers mean with it and I can use it just fine. I have never heard someone with no or limited chemistry knowledge be confused by it. So I see no problem.

I know in the unit-verse it makes no sense what so ever. But, my reef aquarium is my hobby not my profession. And it’s a hobby full of way bigger issues. So I choose to ignore this one.

Just like the use of par as the unit of par.

I’m not ever acting confused unless I am confused. Im glad you are not confused, but then again, maybe you are just making the wrong inference from ambiguous info.

 

[Aaronsreef]

Sorry to reopen this thread , I’m haveing the exact same issue useing RZ (and around my heater ) and doseing far too much

My current alk in 6.1 (Hannah) 6.0 salifert
Ph is over 8.5 tested tonight and I can’t alk up

How did the stop doseing go and how long ?? Should I raise alk before I stop ??

Once stoped doseing should I try and alk up with a something else if so what ? I don’t want the corals too die ,

Please can we keep it simple !! While I love to read all your comments on the science behind it I haven’t got a clue and feel like baby turtle runing to the open water once hatched

I’m a simple man I like beer and reef tanks so if you could dumb down for it I’ll put you on the Christmas card list

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry to reopen this thread , I’m haveing the exact same issue useing RZ (and around my heater ) and doseing far too much

My current alk in 6.1 (Hannah) 6.0 salifert
Ph is over 8.5 tested tonight and I can’t alk up

How did the stop doseing go and how long ?? Should I raise alk before I stop ??

Once stoped doseing should I try and alk up with a something else if so what ? I don’t want the corals too die ,

Please can we keep it simple !! While I love to read all your comments on the science behind it I haven’t got a clue and feel like baby turtle runing to the open water once hatched

I’m a simple man I like beer and reef tanks so if you could dumb down for it I’ll put you on the Christmas card list

Simple: switch to a low pH product after letting the system recover for a few days.

 

[Aaronsreef]

Simple: switch to a low pH product after letting the system recover for a few days.

Thank you appreciate that , and the kh drop ? What is an acceptable figure to allow it to drop to before I have to intervene?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you appreciate that , and the kh drop ? What is an acceptable figure to allow it to drop to before I have to intervene?

It won’t drop too much more. I suppose keeping it above 5 dKH with baking soda might be desirable, but breaking the precipitation cycle is critical.

 

[Aaronsreef]

Thanks again honestly appreciate it

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You’re welcome. Keep us updated.

 

[Aaronsreef]

just a quick update , Thursday I stoped doseing , went and brought new 2 part (zlements ) not phplus tho …my alk was at 6.7so I raised to 7.3 over 2 days , with a kh buffer (z element) done my usual tank management cleaned all the pumps etc

Been testing the alk every 24 hours .
Still sitting at 7.3 which I find strange as I’m not doseing anything .. could this be my calcium carbonate build up keeping the system pegged ? I’m not sure but it’s not moveing yet . I’m gonna continue not doseing till I see a drop in kh , with 24 hour testing tank is looking super healthy and back on its feet .

Thanks Randy !

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Precipitated calcium carbonate won’t redissolve unless the pH gets very low (below pH 7.7).

 

[Aaronsreef]

Precipitated calcium carbonate won’t redissolve unless the pH gets very low (below pH 7.7).

Ok useful to know , I’ll try dropping ph some more , I’ve gone from 8.5 + to 8.0/8.1 without doseing phplus may have to remove my outside air line to drop further tho any idea why the kh isn’t droping ? That’s confused me a little