Selling corals commercially

[VintageReefer]

So I looked into it more and found Ship Your Aquatics (https://shipyouraquatics.com/) and they seem pretty great! They only cover shipping if you send the package Mon-Wed and it has to be delivered to a FedEx pick up location but it only costs $2.50 for every $100 of insurance, so maybe it could be useful for you too!

That’s great!
A doa claim must be made within 4 hours of delivery but that really would have helped me out. Bookmarking this site. Thank you

 

[xine]

Irony works both ways though, doesn't it?

You are not a doctor or a medical student as of yet, but feel qualified to speak to what is required for the practice of medicine.

You are not a coral farmer, yet feel qualified enough to speak to opinions regarding coral farming.

Likewise, you do not know my background, education or experience, yet feel qualified enough to portray me us unqualified to have an opinion on those same matters.


I did not say it was impossible, by any means. My thoughts were actually rather clear in the fact that I see a logical conflict of interest in a medical school encouraging, or prospective physician desiring to split their mental and physical resources to accommodate two different goals that vie for those resources. I stand by that, opinion.


You have basically confirmed my point, oddly rigid (to you) or not. You're interested in opinions that align with your goal of moving forward with your plans and not interested in those that are against the idea. You have had an answer for each and every one of them that you feel negates the concern. That is your prerogative and I don't personally care what choice you make or how you use your time. You asked for opinions, I offered mine.

Sincerely - Best of luck with both medical school and your coral business. The world needs more good doctors.

I am qualified to speak to the requirements that have been shared with me by the medical schools I've been accepted to as well as the publicly available data on work hours for medical students. These are not opinions nor have I made any claims about what it requires to practice medicine. But the staggering number of successful entrepeneur-physicians, physician-scientists, and physician-philanthropists demonstrate that it is quite possible to be an outstanding doctor without sacrificing your goals and interests. In fact, the majority of medical schools have dual MBA-MD programs.

I also haven't shared any opinions on coral farming. All I've said is that given my ability to work a full-time clinical job and complete a full-time PhD I'm confident I can manage the rigors of medical school and running a small business. Given that I am the expert on myself, I do feel qualified to make statements as to what my capabilities are. The point of asking about your qualifications was to demonstrate to you that it is a bias that leads you to question my qualifications to have an opinion on my own capabilities but trust your own despite your lack of qualifications. If my lack of experience disqualifies me from having an opinion, then by your logic I shouldn't consider your opinion either. I was not truly suggesting that one cannot have knowledge on something without experiencing it firsthand, and that's clear from the helpful input I've received from a number of people who don't sell coral in any capacity.

Please do read my initial post. I stated in the first paragraph that I am dedicated to pursuing a business selling corals, and proceeded to ask questions about the logistics of things like business insurance, licensing, and photography. I was not soliciting opinions about whether or not I can do something I already know I'm capable of, given that I wouldn't expect a stranger to understand my personality, interests, or abilities well enough to offer meaningful input on what is ultimately a personal decision. So you are 100% correct that I am only "interested in opinions that align with [my] goal of moving forward with [my] plans and not interested in those that are against the idea" and I outright stated that in the initial post. I never meant to give the impression that I was looking for anything else, so it seems there was a misunderstanding.

I can understand if you thought I was asking for opinions on balancing a business and medical school that you may have been trying to being helpful, and I can appreciate if that was the intent. However, I'm specifically interested in learning from others' experiences and knowledge regarding running a coral business, including the challenges involved. That being said, I have no problem if your opinion is that doing both simulataneously will be challenging. That's a valid opinion. I do think it is presumptuous to assume that one cannot be a good physician and also be heavily engaged in other ventures.

The most passionate and dedicated physicians and scientists I know are equally passionate in all aspects of their lives, including several that run small businesses, a few that are heavily involved with volunteer and charity organizations including running NGOs, one that is also a fiction author, and others that just have a lot of hobbies.

Thank you for the well wishes.

 

[xine]

I'll be that person but my recommendation would be to focus on school. Depending on what road medical school takes you residency is a whole different level. I know the residents at both my wife and daughters hospital work extremely difficult rotations and schedules and that of course will depend on your local.

Oh definitely. I'll either have to have employees managing the day-to-day by then or I'll likely have to let it go. A number of states have instituted mandatory 60 or 80 hour caps on work hours for interns and residents and some specialties average 40 hr weeks so there are some scenarios where it could be feasible but I'm going to plan for the worst case scenario and plan to have it operating pretty sustainably or give it up.

 

[xine]

OP-I wish you the best of luck.

If you are incredibly intelligent and energetic, I think maybe you can do this the first 1-2 years of med school when you are mostly doing didactics.

For most medical schools, you will be doing clinical rotations your third and fourth years. Some of those rotations simply will not be flexible with regard to hours worked and days off. You will have to have a plan to maintain the business during these times, e.g. a deeply committed partner.

If you are attending an ‘online’ medical school, then you will likely need to do clinical rotations away from where you live.

You need to have a plan to deal with these issues, otherwise you will have to make a difficult choice in a couple of years. Being smart and working hard are assets, not plans.

My opinion, which I expect you will ignore, is that starting both of these at once is a very challenging idea. I would think about which is more important to you and do that first. A regular side hustle with non-living merchandise would be much easier, you could just pause for a week or month if needed. If you try to do that with a coral farm, you risk losing everything.

Oh no it's not online school. I believe Yale has the only online medical school in the US, but most US medical schools have transitioned away from mandatory lectures because students are able to be much more efficient with their time watching lectures on 2x speed at home which promotes work-life balance and encourages them to participate other opportunities that enrich their education, like business, research, and service work. There are still plenty of in-person requirements for labs and practicals, small group and collaborative learning, simulation labs, etc. but this is often only 5-10 hours a week. Then of course there's clinical work, volunteering, and research but the schools I've been accepted to so far give students a lot of independence and flexibility to control these aspects of their schedules.

They also incorporate early clinical experiences so it's not packed into the final years and 3rd year will actually be the most flexible as it's almost completely open to focus on other forms of enrichment so it would be a great time to make sure I have staff and automation in place before beginning residency. I've considered starting other businesses over the years but truthfully I'm just not enthusiastic enough about anything else to enjoy doing it as a business. I like this hobby enough that the time I've spent setting up the business so far has felt much more like fun/free time than work.

 

[xine]

This right here is spot on. I can’t tell you how every July is absolutely chaos because of the massive Influx every hospital has of new doctors. The amount of time is absolutely asinine, you can tell the md who spent his time not focused on med school and those that put the time in to understand the constant evolving science backed processes that are being practiced. You get back what you put into med school, so yes you can do the absolute minimum but remember that it’s not a fish or coral that is affected by your split second decisions it’s the patient. If you think you can breeze into a fellowship that’s another thing coming as well, you get one shot on day one to show an attending you’re not just some goof.
Then you have to consider all the time you’ll be on call, so when you finally go to the room in the hospital to sleep after a 18 hour shift but then Becky/Ben, your RN, call and say hey Mrs.smith is 42/palp…back at it again.

I’m not even going to get into what your ICU rotation will be like. Our pulm med ICU only does 3 week rotations for first year residents because of the fact it was eating them up so badly. Ie. you get an ed pt and they’re routine but come up hemorrhaging blood from every possible place, to the point a critical care attending says “what the heck is going on”. You don’t want to be the one who did the minimum and treated med school as a breeze.

I’ll do one more example. We have this renowned physician that has climbed multiple summits, the college and hospital hold him in high accord. But the staff that work with him say otherwise. That he’s to focused on his next climb and rushes his surgeries/fusions and has repeatedly nicked the Dura.

I’m going to stop because I could literally go on for hours. Please just heed what is involved in actually making a profit in coral and contrast that with the time you need to be at least competent in medicine…which you won’t be until after your first year of mind melting, back breaking work under your fellow. Best of luck in both endeavors

Not trying to be a D, just want to communicate to you how important it is med school and residency isn’t an after thought and deserves more than what google says in devotion. The people that rely on you and everyone else in the medical field can have disastrous outcomes due a split second choice.

I've worked in medicine for several years now so I do understand the rigors involved with pursuing an MD. I can definitely make it work during med school but I'm either going to need to scale to have employees that manage the day-to-day by the time I start intern year or I'm going to dissolve it.

I absolutely love medicine and am a complete stickler for patient care. I'm routinely the last person to leave the clinic, the first to skip a break to spend extra time with a patient who needs it, and an advocate for my patients. And I appreciate that you clearly feel the same way for your patients.

One of the reasons I love medicine is that there are opportunities every day to go above and beyond for people in ways that have a truly meaningful impact on their lives. Besides that, I love learning and take education very seriously even when nobody's life is on the line. I am far too much of a perfectionist to give any less than my absolute best in any aspect of my life, but especially when it comes to patient care. No matter how much I invest in this business, I'd let it all go up in flames in a heartbeat before I'd ever jeopardize patient care.

I just know myself. I know my limits, I know what's going to make me happy and productive, and I know the more passion I have in my life the more energy I have to reinvest. If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. And actually my favorite phyicians are the same way. They constantly sacrifice to go the extra mile for patients and do so gladly, but they're equally passionate about their families, their hobbies, and yes even their businesses. One has a brewery she works in every single day after work but she loves it so it doesn't detract from her work at all.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am qualified to speak to the requirements that have been shared with me by the medical schools I've been accepted to as well as the publicly available data on work hours for medical students. These are not opinions

Let's take a step back. You dismissed my perspective on balancing medical school and a business because I am not a physician or medical student, and validated your own position by referencing publicly available information and consulting a medical school -- something anyone could do. By that very logic, my knowledge of business and time management should be just as valid, let alone my opinion vs yours on going to medical school and running a business. You can’t apply one standard to me while exempting yourself from it.

You argue that I am offering opinion while you are offering fact, that I am showing bias while you are not. But your position is based entirely on personal confidence in your own ability -- confidence which, by your own reasoning, is just as “biased” as any counterpoint presented to you.

Given the totality of your responses in this thread, I get the impression that no one has ever convinced you that you were wrong, and I certainly don't expect to be the first. So, I’ll leave it here: You are clearly set on your course. That’s your prerogative, and I have no interest in arguing for the sake of it. You asked for public opinion, and I have offered mine, and that is the end of it.

Best of luck with both med school and your business.

 

[Subsea]

Background:
I'm aware of the risks but am dedicated to starting a small business selling corals, primarily as a side job while I'm in medical school and because it's fun. My partner runs his own business so I have a good idea of the challenges involved.

I've invested about 1.2k in corals and have ~45 unique corals I'll be growing out and fragging to start, including colonies of several popular high-end pieces (anywhere from $100-500 per frag depending on the piece). For a quick return I have mushrooms, zoas, palys, xenia and various polyps, btas, phytoplankton, rotifers, copepods. For intermediate-long return I have hammers, torches, alveopora, goniopora, and some faster growing sps. I should be able to make 4k fragging the zoa and mushroom colonies alone but for now I just want to recoup my losses. My goal this year is to grow sustainable colonies so that I can produce enough to meet demand and comfortably offer 7-day guarantees on most items. I know bad actors are a major time suck and I'd rather replace corals than fight chargebacks and bad reviews, plus I love great customer service.

I've also registered as an LLC so I can start looking at wholesalers to decide who I'd like to source corals from in the future, but for now I'll be selling privately on eBay to learn more before I officially launch the business.

Questions:
- Do I need any special permitting or licensure if I'm not collecting corals from the ocean myself or importing them internationally? Located in Denver, CO. I couldn't find any requirements.
- Should I carry commercial liability insurance since I'll be selling palys? Is insurance necessary while I'm selling privately on eBay or is a disclaimer sufficient?
- What hidden costs have surprised people selling corals either privately or commerically? I'm making my own website, making my own frag plugs, using free accounting software, etc. I know I need to set up a shipping account, purchase shipping materials, set aside money to pay taxes, and eventually invest in marketing and branding once I launch the website. Anything else besides the cost of replacing corals that fall under DOA/guarantee policies?
- Finally, photography! iPhone macro lens will do for now but it means I'll have to photograph every coral just under the surface of the water since the working distance of the camera is so limited. I'd like be able to take macro shots of coral at a distance of up to ~2 ft through glass and water. Any recommendations for cameras and lenses? Preferrably ones that are a little older and can be bought secondhand.

I like your confidence as an entrepreneur. However, you will not practice medicine on me with the attitude that you have toward your MD internship.

I am a coral farmer as are many mom & pop operations and the competition is brutal. It’s takes time to be sustainable.

While I admire your due diligence, confidence has its limitations. Yes to selling frags of high end corals from wholesalers to offset cost to stock your dream tank. However, you will not make enough money to live on.

I am 76 years old and have been Reefing for 55 years and never get bored. When I went to get an agriculture permit to operate a hatchery (10KG in a 20’ by 40’ greenhouse), the states of Florida & Hawaii regulate mariculture under the Department of Agriculture, but the State of Louisiana, grouped mariculture under Wildlife & Fisheries which focused on protecting native species and not business operations. Regulations & restrictions prohibited profitable operations so I never fully developed the business.

Here in Texas, to make an agriculture permit (for tax purposes) easier, I am a zero discharge facility, which removes risk of species invasion into public waters.

Time is a precious research. Manage it well.

 

[Tamberav]

They told us 3rd year would be more relaxed too... then one of the residents took a leave for mental health reasons and my husband got to cover their ICU rotation as well as his own.

They can't leave the ICU without their resident so pulled him off his elective for it.

Boo! Glad it is behind us. It is a bit hard on significant others too.

 

[areefer01]

Boo! Glad it is behind us. It is a bit hard on significant others too.

Pets, children, extended family, and more.

I fully acknowledge that there are gifted people, smart people, people who excel at both time management and multi-tasking. Rare, but they are out there. Just not sure I'd throw a reef tank into the mix. I'd probably pick up an old Piper J-3 Cub or 65 convertible Mustang instead. Something I can wrench on to unwind or ignore when I want to yet still have a sense of accomplishment.

 

[xine]

Let's take a step back. You dismissed my perspective on balancing medical school and a business because I am not a physician or medical student, and validated your own position by referencing publicly available information and consulting a medical school -- something anyone could do. By that very logic, my knowledge of business and time management should be just as valid, let alone my opinion vs yours on going to medical school and running a business. You can’t apply one standard to me while exempting yourself from it.

You argue that I am offering opinion while you are offering fact, that I am showing bias while you are not. But your position is based entirely on personal confidence in your own ability -- confidence which, by your own reasoning, is just as “biased” as any counterpoint presented to you.

Given the totality of your responses in this thread, I get the impression that no one has ever convinced you that you were wrong, and I certainly don't expect to be the first. So, I’ll leave it here: You are clearly set on your course. That’s your prerogative, and I have no interest in arguing for the sake of it. You asked for public opinion, and I have offered mine, and that is the end of it.

Best of luck with both med school and your business.

As stated in my last comment, I was not dismissing your opinion because of lack of qualification. I was flipping your logic intentionally to illustrate the absurdity of you saying that because I haven’t been a medical student and business owner I can’t know what it’s like, but simultaneously that even though you also haven’t done those things, you do know what it’s like and I should listen to your sage advice. I also do think it’s quite arrogant to dismiss medical institutions (whose entire job is to understand and ensure students meet the requirements to become a physician) as out of touch academics because they disagree with you. The experts in this field don’t agree with me so they must all be wrong.

Again, per my last comment, I have made no claims about what it takes to practice medicine or run a business. Only you have. I claimed that I can handle the workload of a business and med school (yes, my opinion and I never claimed otherwise). I also refuted your claim that someone who runs a business during medical school must compromise their education in some way to do so. If I have 100 hours of time to work in a week and 60 goes toward medical school, why does it matter if I spend the other 40 doing a hobby I enjoy or staring at a wall? How possibly does enjoying my time outside of school compromise the time I spend in school? Maybe this time you could actually answer the question because I’m still waiting on you to provide any facts whatsoever for me to consider.

Throughout the conversation I’ve responded to each topic you’ve brought up and I have provided explanations for my perspective, about how medical schools encourage entrepreneurship and even offer MBA-MD programs, how common it is for the physicians employed at the best hospitals in the country to also own and operate businesses, about the requirements of the med schools I’m accepted to and how I anticipate meeting them while running a business, about the work load I’m used to successfully carrying and how it is a numerically greater amount of time than the workload required of a medical student. These statements are not opinions. They are facts. Considering all of these facts, my opinion is that running a business and succeeding in medical school is quite doable for me. Your opinion is that it’s not realistic and it’s absurd that medical schools encourage entrepreneurship and that they’re “out of touch.” But what facts have you offered that you’d like me to consider that would warrant me changing my opinion?

I have no problem being wrong, but if I am it’s because someone made a compelling argument supported by evidence that made me realize my perspective was flawed or incorrect. It’s not because someone just keeps repeating their opinion without actually providing any rationale for it. So I’m more than happy to consider any evidence you can provide that running a business will compromise my education, or even that it compromises medical education or physician performance more broadly, or that medical institutions are out of touch and harming their students and degrading the field by encouraging students to develop interests and skills outside of pure clinical practice. But just saying these things are true because you feel like it has no merit.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I’ve said my piece, and you’ve made it clear that you have no interest in anything that doesn’t align with what you’ve already decided.

You’ve consistently reframed my points, while presenting your own opinions as fact, and demanded evidence while offering none that actually proves your position — only that you believe it. The result is a circular argument where there is no argument to be had.

You asked for opinions, and I gave mine and stand by it. You’re welcome to do what you want with your time —that was never my decision to make.

Best of luck.

 

[xine]

They told us 3rd year would be more relaxed too... then one of the residents took a leave for mental health reasons and my husband got to cover their ICU rotation as well as his own.

They can't leave the ICU without their resident so pulled him off his elective for it.

Boo! Glad it is behind us. It is a bit hard on significant others too.

Ooh that’s rough. I knew stuff like that happened with interns and residents but I wouldn’t expect they’d pull a student to cover for a resident!

Definitely good to consider what I’ll do if something unexpected like that pops up. I’ll have to start prepping my partner for the potential of some tank maintenance duties in case of emergency lol. The nice thing is that with his background he could cover the business side for me no problem, but cleaning is going to be a hard sell

 

[xine]

I’ve said my piece, and you’ve made it clear that you have no interest in anything that doesn’t align with what you’ve already decided.

You’ve consistently reframed my points, while presenting your own opinions as fact, and demanded evidence while offering none that actually proves your position — only that you believe it. The result is a circular argument where there is no argument to be had.

You asked for opinions, and I gave mine and stand by it. You’re welcome to do what you want with your time —that was never my decision to make.

Best of luck.

Well I’m just shocked that when asked to explain the basis of your opinions you refuse to, not because you don’t actually have any rationale but because I’m clearly lying about being interested in your reasoning. It’s lucky you’re so clever you saw right through that. And here I was starting to think you were arguing in bad faith, unable to explain the merit of your opinion because it has none.

Evidence doesn’t prove a position, it supports it.

Quote a single instance of me presenting an opinion as fact. Literally copy paste my words.

Quote where I asked for opinions on balancing med school and a business.

Maybe reading comprehension is an issue here but I’m sure if you go back and read my initial post enough times it’ll eventually click.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Your entire response only reinforces my point, as do your responses to others in this thread. Now you’re resorting to mockery, baiting, and shifting goalposts. At this point, it’s clear you’re not interested in discussion --only in "winning" a conversation where no debate actually exists.

I am not interested, and have made that clear.

Thanks!

 

[Tamberav]

Ooh that’s rough. I knew stuff like that happened with interns and residents but I wouldn’t expect they’d pull a student to cover for a resident!

Definitely good to consider what I’ll do if something unexpected like that pops up. I’ll have to start prepping my partner for the potential of some tank maintenance duties in case of emergency lol. The nice thing is that with his background he could cover the business side for me no problem, but cleaning is going to be a hard sell

Sorry this was when he was in residency. I was just remembering dark times..

 

[xine]

Sorry this was when he was in residency. I was just remembering dark times..

Oh that makes more sense! My partner is safe from cleaning for now then.

Yeah…. I’m definitely going to be applying heavily to states that have laws that limit resident hours to 60-80/wk. Hopefully by then more states will have adopted restrictions with all the research that’s come out showing that 100+ hour weeks lead to more mistakes and put patients at risk.

 

[xine]

Your entire response only reinforces my point, as do your responses to others in this thread. Now you’re resorting to mockery, baiting, and shifting goalposts. At this point, it’s clear you’re not interested in discussion --only in "winning" a conversation where no debate actually exists.

I am not interested, and have made that clear.

Thanks!

I was aiming for sarcasm but I’ll take it. The goalpost is still you providing any support for the opinions you’d like me to consider, and I’ve made it clear I’m quite happy to do so if you’re able to provide anything for me to consider. You’ve consistently been unable to do so. Maybe if you’re not interested in explaining your perspective, it’s best not to accuse others of being unwilling to hear it.

Similarly, if you are truly arguing in good faith, providing quotes of the things you claim I’ve said would very quickly move the conversation forward and free you from the circular arguments you say you’d like to be free of.

Speaking of, you’re welcome to stop responding any time. I really have no ability to make you do anything you don’t want to do. As I’ve said I’m interested to hear your rationale, which you indicated you wanted me to do earlier but you seemed to have changed your mind as soon as I agreed. We’re both free to pursue our interests. It’s simple. I will continue to communicate that I’m interested in your rationale and in being pointed to the things you claim I’ve said, and you can respond if you’d like or can stop responding if you don’t want to.