Sunken face flame angel

[wheel6251]

Hi everyone, we have three flame angels in our tank. The biggest one, looks like the area behind his eyes is sunken in. Any ideas?

 

[exnisstech]

Videos won't play for me. Posting to youtube and pasting the link here works best.
What makes you thing 3 flame angels together is a good idea? Maybe 2 if you sex them and get a pair but I can't see three working out long term but maybe I'm wrong

 

[wheel6251]

I’ll try something different to post the video. It’s a Harem. They all get along great, have for at least 6 months.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi everyone, we have three flame angels in our tank. The biggest one, looks like the area behind his eyes is sunken in. Any ideas?

This fish is thin and appears weak against the current and looks to be under-nourished. Is fish eating or nibbling?
Is it breathing normal or labored?
What foods are you offering the fish?

 

[wheel6251]

He eats at every feeding. They get mysis, brine, flakes, pellets and nori on a random rotation He’s not an aggressive eater but eats consistently.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi everyone, we have three flame angels in our tank. The biggest one, looks like the area behind his eyes is sunken in. Any ideas?

Severe emaciation shows up in fish like this - the belly gets thin, but so does the space behind the fish's head (the nape). This is from the fish using muscle tissue for energy. Once that is mostly used up, the fish uses its liver for energy. At that point, the liver damage is permanent and the fish dies.

So - why did this happen? It could be just a long term lack of calories. I had one person tell me, "I feed my tank one spoon of food every day". Trouble is, the fish were growing and the food amount wasn't adjusted. You need to have the fish tell you how much to feed - if they eat all that is offered, give them a bit more.

That said, if the other two angels are fine, then that isn't as likely to be the issue, as they would be thin also.

Internal parasites are often touted as a reason a fish gets thin - that can usually be overcome by feeding the fish more, parasites don't want to kill their hosts after all.

There are some non-parasitic issues and diseases that can cause this, but their treatment isn't easy because you can't diagnose them easily.

Here is an article I wrote about chronic anorexia in fishes:

Chronic Anorexia in Aquarium Fishes

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the fish will begin feeding when it gets hungry enough, or conclude it must be eating something, just not when you are watching.

reefs.com

 

[wheel6251]

Severe emaciation shows up in fish like this - the belly gets thin, but so does the nape behind the fish's head (the nape). This is from the fish using muscle tissue for energy. Once that is mostly used up, the fish uses its liver for energy. At that point, the liver damage is permanent and the fish dies.

So - why did this happen? It could be just a long term lack of calories. I had one person tell me, "I feed my tank one spoon of food every day". Trouble is, the fish were growing and the food amount wasn't adjusted. You need to have the fish tell you how much to feed - if they eat all that is offered, give them a bit more.

That said, if the other two angels are fine, then that isn't as likely to be the issue, as they would be thin also.

Internal parasites are often touted as a reason a fish gets thin - that can usually be overcome by feeding the fish more, parasites don't want to kill their hosts after all.

There are some non-parasitic issues and diseases that can cause this, but their treatment isn't easy because you can't diagnose them easily.

Here is an article I wrote about chronic anorexia in fishes:

Chronic Anorexia in Aquarium Fishes

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the fish will begin feeding when it gets hungry enough, or conclude it must be eating something, just not when you are watching.

reefs.com

Thanks Jay, much appreciated. I often worry I am feeding too much and worry about an ammonia spike. Not sure if that should be a concern. The FOWLR has been running since 1/2024 and we recently added some larger fish, so our feeding has gone up 40%.

 

[exnisstech]

I'm not aware of over feeding causing an ammonia spike. IME not much of anything causes an ammonia spike in a cycled tank unless it's a death in a very small tank. I think some people blame an ammonia spike on things because they feel the need to determine the cause of an event when sometimes stuff just happens.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay, much appreciated. I often worry I am feeding too much and worry about an ammonia spike. Not sure if that should be a concern. The FOWLR has been running since 1/2024 and we recently added some larger fish, so our feeding has gone up 40%.

Now, if it was just an overall lack of food going into the tank, the other fish would be showing signs of thinness as well. this angel has something wrong with it, not sure what, but feeding it multiple times a day, as much as it will take (without lots of uneaten food) you might be able to swing the balance and get it a bit fatter.

 

[wheel6251]

Severe emaciation shows up in fish like this - the belly gets thin, but so does the space behind the fish's head (the nape). This is from the fish using muscle tissue for energy. Once that is mostly used up, the fish uses its liver for energy. At that point, the liver damage is permanent and the fish dies.

So - why did this happen? It could be just a long term lack of calories. I had one person tell me, "I feed my tank one spoon of food every day". Trouble is, the fish were growing and the food amount wasn't adjusted. You need to have the fish tell you how much to feed - if they eat all that is offered, give them a bit more.

That said, if the other two angels are fine, then that isn't as likely to be the issue, as they would be thin also.

Internal parasites are often touted as a reason a fish gets thin - that can usually be overcome by feeding the fish more, parasites don't want to kill their hosts after all.

There are some non-parasitic issues and diseases that can cause this, but their treatment isn't easy because you can't diagnose them easily.

Here is an article I wrote about chronic anorexia in fishes:

Chronic Anorexia in Aquarium Fishes

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the fish will begin feeding when it gets hungry enough, or conclude it must be eating something, just not when you are watching.

reefs.com

Hey Jay, just a follow up. I started watching this guy a little little closer and realized that he won’t eat my sis shrimp. Which has become a staple of our routine. I added brine shrimp back into it and he is eating well again.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey Jay, just a follow up. I started watching this guy a little little closer and realized that he won’t eat my sis shrimp. Which has become a staple of our routine. I added brine shrimp back into it and he is eating well again.

Good to hear that you have it feeding better. One word of caution - brine shrimp is lacking in some fatty acids, and is pretty low in overall fat and protein. You should try to find some other foods to augment the brine. Will it accept chopped up mysids? How about small pellets like New Life Spectrum?

 

[wheel6251]

He likes the pellets, but I gotta put a ton in bc everything likes them as well. I’m gonna try to move him to a QT.

 

[wheel6251]

He likes the pellets, but I gotta put a ton in bc everything likes them as well. I’m gonna try to move him to a QT.

Ty

 

[wheel6251]

well, still eating some but now is swimming sideways sometimes. Someone said maybe he’s changing sex since I have more than one in the tank. LFS gave me intestipro to treat him with, but don’t really want to introduce chemicals into the tank.

Hey Jay, just a follow up. I started watching this guy a little little closer and realized that he won’t eat my sis shrimp. Which has become a staple of our routine. I added brine shrimp back into it and he is eating well again.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What is the active ingredient in the “intestipro”? Can you get a video of the way the angel is swimming?

well, still eating some but now is swimming sideways sometimes. Someone said maybe he’s changing sex since I have more than one in the tank. LFS gave me intestipro to treat him with, but don’t really want to introduce chemicals into the tank.

 

[wheel6251]

What is the active ingredient in the “intestipro”? Can you get a video of the way the angel is swimming?

 

[wheel6251]

What is the active ingredient in the “intestipro”? Can you get a video of the way the angel is swimming?

praziquantel and metronidazole: