TBS Live Rock and Sand Disease Risk

[CHSUB]

You have time to train them and learn their ways.

have had them before and removed, never tried to “domesticate” them. Is that possible, considering I have small fish and only a 20 gallon? When I had a large tank, 300 g, had a crab grow huge that I couldn’t remove. He ended up taking down a Blue Throat Trigger.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I had a follow up thought I just want to share here. Again, how strict you want to be when QT'ing new livestock is a personal choice for sure. But many here at R2R like to QT everything "wet", so fish of course, but also inverts like snails, crabs, shrimp, etc. If it's possible that something like a snail could have ich on or inside it, would it not be possible that a snail that came on the TBS rocks could bring in parasites?

Again, I freely admit that the likelihood of getting a disease causing organism this way is very low, but to me a two month fallow when you first get your rock is insurance. Use that time to trap and remove and unwanted hitchhikers, and QT your fish in another tank.

Just one other comment, many non fish things like frags and snails come from systems that are also housing fish, and those fish will be providing the diseases.

Live rock and sand from tbs are not being housed with large numbers of ornamental fish, and wild ocean fish are much less likely to be heavily infected.

 

[brandon429]

@Jay Hemdal

Live rock and and sand from the ocean easily vectors in disease. Would you add unfallowed live rock from any source into zoo systems you're responsible for? Your home system?


biosecurity applies to materials transfer among reef tanks


From oceanic sources it's even more likely to have animals that are direct vectors, = snails etc / see Jay's biosecurity article

Cured live rock, wet surfaces, can introduce tomonts across systems even if it doesn't have snails with fish diseases directly in the gut

When people remove all their fish to fallow a system, why do they do that if live rock/ sand / surfaces aren't a harbor? Simply removing fish would instantly starve the parasites if surfaces afforded no hiding and insulation places. It takes 45-90 days, so what happens if we move that live rock into someone else's tank on day 2

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is there any evidence of anyone getting any fish disease from live rock or sand from the ocean?

I think there is at least a slim chance for this. Some fluke eggs have adhesive tendrils, and tomonts can be wedged in the rock. The biggest issue I've seen with this product is the introduction of unwanted hitchhikers, especially cirolanid isopods, a fish "micropredator".

Having the rocks fallow for a couple of months helps with that.

 

[Subsea]

I think there is at least a slim chance for this. Some fluke eggs have adhesive tendrils, and tomonts can be wedged in the rock. The biggest issue I've seen with this product is the introduction of unwanted hitchhikers, especially cirolanid isopods, a fish "micropredator".

Having the rocks fallow for a couple of months helps with that.

While I am a Laissez Faire reefer, I also have seen much evidence that auto immune system works best for fish & people when subjected to pathogens; so in a healthy captive reef tank, I emulate nature.

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In my experiences with diver collected live rock, it’s best left fishless to see what propagates without heavy fish predatation.

 

[CHSUB]

My opinion: I qt fish and nothing else. Been 100% successful keeping fish parasites out of DT. 5 times did live rock and fish without fallow period, small sample size. Know the risk, imo, small but real. If I was in charge, responsible for something bigger than my home aquarium I would fallow and QT everything, however I’m to impatient for my home aquariums.

 

[brandon429]

Thats well stated agreed. Me too

 

[dangles]

I generally agree with everyone that live rock has great benefits, however someone recently (I see the post below where Aquabiomics came back good) sent an Aquabiomics and found ich.

Did they add the rock to an existing tank? If so, did they have a "clean" test prior to that? If a new tank, did they transfer fish/corals into the tank along with the live rock? Maybe not, but all are relevant questions worth asking.

I think it's becoming more and more clear that ich (and many of the other "big nasties") exist in tanks that don't exhibit any symptoms. Many more tanks than most people realize most likely. I'd be curious if 100 random people tested their tanks, how many would pop positive on one or more parasites/diseases without symptoms.

To the OP... I've only been in the hobby for a little over 2 years so my experience is obviously limited. Take my opinions as just that... opinions. But in that short time I've already evolved from "QT ALL THE THINGS!!!" to "buy from trusted sources, try to keep everybody healthy, well-fed and minimize stress.... and try not to stress yourself too much." Take reasonable precautions for sure. I will only buy pre-QTd fish from now on because I DO have a verified clean tank. But beyond that, I don't stress too much about it. I won't hesitate to add live rock/sand in the future. But I get it too. It's easy to get overwhelmed with info and anecdotal opinions on the forums

 

[brandon429]

It's the requirement when responsible for tanks other than our own

As in, not using this method while advising others tanks won't work= why the disease forum exists/ to cleanup. At home, for sure skill + luck + artistic ability makes the whole thing seem like extra

 

[malacoda]

@Aaron Stone — the simple answer is: The likelihood is incredibly low ... but not complete, absolute zero.

Someone who fallows their system for 3-4 months ... QTs all their fish ... but then adds snails or frag plugs from a heavily populated/heavily trafficked retail system, or an infected hobbyist's tank stands a significantly greater likelihood of introducing a parasite or pathogen. It's still low. But not as low as live rock or sand from TBS.

Odds are you'll be fine.

That said, there are no absolute 100% guarantees in this hobby.

There will always be some level of risk. And you can drive yourself mad trying to achieve a goal of zero risk.

I think @dangles said it best (and has gained some solid wisdom in a fairly short time reefing): Just take sensible, reasonable precautions, and enjoy your tank.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

I don't know, I have heard of stories where people claim they got ich from a frag plug, so why not a rock?

You know where I am going with this right...
In truth anything is possible. Very few people have the money or time or the space for proper QT. Many are well intentioned, but even Polo Reef keeps all of their QT tanks in the same roomish. Even if the tanks are on isolated systems, the tanks themselves are not isolated from each other. Pathogens can come from anywhere at any time and nearly impossible to prevent that. If we could, we would not have/had covid still. The best we can do is try to mitigate it as best we can and find a balance between enjoyment and prevention. I feel the best prevention to both corals and fish is to limit and stressors, that can leave animals open to said pathogens. That comes from good husbandry.

 

[Fish Fan]

Again, to each their own here, but I have been in the camp of QT'ing everything wet. To me, it's no big deal, I don't mind doing the fallow period or other forms of QT, I actually enjoy the process. Maybe that's just me lol!

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Again, to each their own here, but I have been in the camp of QT'ing everything wet. To me, it's no big deal, I don't mind doing the fallow period or other forms of QT, I actually enjoy the process. Maybe that's just me lol!

One of my points exactly. Everyone has to find their own balance.

 

[Fish Fan]

You know where I am going with this right...
In truth anything is possible. Very few people have the money or time or the space for proper QT. Many are well intentioned, but even Polo Reef keeps all of their QT tanks in the same roomish. Even if the tanks are on isolated systems, the tanks themselves are not isolated from each other. Pathogens can come from anywhere at any time and nearly impossible to prevent that. If we could, we would not have/had covid still. The best we can do is try to mitigate it as best we can and find a balance between enjoyment and prevention. I feel the best prevention to both corals and fish is to limit and stressors, that can leave animals open to said pathogens. That comes from good husbandry.

I don't disagree at all about keeping fish stress free, and also I see examples like DanP and Subsea who feel that the fish's immune system is the way to go (a more natural way, perhaps). But for me, QT'ing things even rock just makes sense to me at least. I certainly don't think it hurts anything, and as I've said for me I actually enjoy the process or perhaps the challenge of trying to keep nasties out of my tanks.

One of my points exactly. Everyone has to find their own balance.

Yes sir! Everyone should do what they feel comfortable with here. I know I am very much in the minority compared other reefers out there.

 

[Subsea]

QT, I actually enjoy the process. Maybe that's just me lol!

Hey Fish,
You are marching to a different drum beat. Kudos to your rythym.
At 76 years old, 55 years of Reefing and tooooo many tanks; I don’t have the time resources required for your due dillengence.

 

[Fish Fan]

QT, I actually enjoy the process. Maybe that's just me lol!

Hey Fish,
You are marching to a different drum beat. Kudos to your rythym.
At 76 years old, 55 years of Reefing and tooooo many tanks; I don’t have the time resources required for your due dillengence.

I get it, it's not for everyone, but it's what I've adopted and I really do find the process 'fun'. It's got to be just me lol!

 

[Subsea]

“I certainly don't think it hurts anything, and as I've said for me I actually enjoy the process or perhaps the challenge of trying to keep nasties out of my tanks. “

@Fish Fan
Let’s park here. Details matter. As I indicated in an earlier post, observing diver collected live rock in a fishless system is best for achieving biodiversity on the live rock. However, taking a wild caught reef fish from his community and isolating it in quarantine further increases stress. I don’t consider that good husbandry for the animal, maybe as you say, bio security matters.


I breath air without a filter. I also smoke pot.

 

[CHSUB]

I get it, it's not for everyone, but it's what I've adopted and I really do find the process 'fun'. It's got to be just me lol!

I don’t qt corals, but sometimes I wish I did. Now I have this on an Elegance Coral….”you smart, me dumb”!

 

[Fish Fan]

“I certainly don't think it hurts anything, and as I've said for me I actually enjoy the process or perhaps the challenge of trying to keep nasties out of my tanks. “

@Fish Fan
Let’s park here. Details matter. As I indicated in an earlier post, observing diver collected live rock in a fishless system is best for achieving biodiversity on the live rock. However, taking a wild caught reef fish from his community and isolating it in quarantine further increases stress. I don’t consider that good husbandry for the animal, maybe as you say, bio security matters.


I breath air without a filter. I also smoke pot.

I do agree it's an extra level of stress for the fish, but so far have not lost a fish in the QT process

 

[Fish Fan]

”you smart, me dumb”!

I would not quite say that lol!

But sorry that happened. I don't know if it's possible to 100% keep every disease organism out of your tank by QT'ing, but I sure am trying