Tropic Marin All For Reef

[dolpator]

I was curious about one more thing. Can AFR be Dosed Controlled through the Neptune. I understand I can say dose 15ml every morning at 7am. but like would it work if you were testing Alk through the Neptune and it dosed based off what the Trident was testing..I only worry because isn't it a delayed result as bacteria is used to convert Alk. So maybe it wouldn't work. HMMM

 

[JustAnotherNanoTank]

I was curious about one more thing. Can AFR be Dosed Controlled through the Neptune. I understand I can say dose 15ml every morning at 7am. but like would it work if you were testing Alk through the Neptune and it dosed based off what the Trident was testing..I only worry because isn't it a delayed result as bacteria is used to convert Alk. So maybe it wouldn't work. HMMM

That’s a great question. I don’t know if that’s been answered.

I would just dose what your tank uses daily. Start slow and monitor.

 

[Alazo1]

IMO I would give your tank more time to settle after the issues that you've had.
I don't think you are out of the woods yet. Just last week you had some loses. I'd give it another month to see if your system has truly stabilized.

Alk and calcium are fine and even if the alk dips to 7 dkh it would be fine. NSW runs at 7 dkh. At least you'll know what your system is consuming. Personally I would do 2 part vs AFR due to that afr has a carbon source. For some reason carbon dosing has always given me pain.

 

[GARRIGA]

I advise against testing solely off calcium! I don’t even care what my calcium is haha! Test alk and watch alk! Randy preaches this all the time even thou Red Sea and tropic marine say to test off calcium sigh….

Lou preached off calcium with AFR or CarboCalcium because alkalinity lags and corals might be consuming it directly in its formate form before bacteria digest it.

Trust everything Randy says but in this respect going off calcium makes the best sense to me. OP mentioned others talking about high calcium and I suspect it might just be because going off alkalinity.

Consider the fact that by the time one gets an accurate reading on alkalinity with calcium formate that might be falsely low because of that lag and possibility it was already consumed by corals.

For two part because I don’t do WC and recover base lost during nitrification with carbon or algae I’d also go off calcium because I’m not tossing that base out with the bath water. No one way to manage water and for others perhaps alkalinity should be the gauge and why I detail all my stipulations.

 

[Troylee]

Lou preached off calcium with AFR or CarboCalcium because alkalinity lags and corals might be consuming it directly in its formate form before bacteria digest it.

Trust everything Randy says but in this respect going off calcium makes the best sense to me. OP mentioned others talking about high calcium and I suspect it might just be because going off alkalinity.

Consider the fact that by the time one gets an accurate reading on alkalinity with calcium formate that might be falsely low because of that lag and possibility it was already consumed by corals.

For two part because I don’t do WC and recover base lost during nitrification with carbon or algae I’d also go off calcium because I’m not tossing that base out with the bath water. No one way to manage water and for others perhaps alkalinity should be the gauge and why I detail all my stipulations.

High calcium is normal when using kalk… does it matter? I don’t believe so honestly I’ve never seen ill effects all the way up to 600ppm..

 

[GARRIGA]

High calcium is normal when using kalk… does it matter? I don’t believe so honestly I’ve never seen ill effects all the way up to 600ppm..

Why would calcium be high dosing kalk if dosed based on consumption?

No clue at what level calcium becomes detrimental. That’s an area Randy would know. I just assume best to avoid it.

 

[Troylee]

Why would calcium be high dosing kalk if dosed based on consumption?

No clue at what level calcium becomes detrimental. That’s an area Randy would know. I just assume best to avoid it.

Here's my comment from my Triton ICP article:

Calcium (Ca). In my reef aquarium, I use only Instant Ocean salt and I have not added any additional calcium except as limewater for a number of years (during which time I have continued regular 1% daily water changes). So why is my calcium level (472 mg/L) higher than one would normally expect for Instant Ocean (maybe between 350 and 400 mg/L)? That long term rise in calcium is actually the expected result when using limewater to maintain alkalinity.

Limewater adds calcium and alkalinity in exactly the same proportions as in pure calcium carbonate. So if that is what is used by corals to make skeletons, and what precipitates on pumps and such, then calcium would stay constant.

But both magnesium and strontium get into growing calcium carbonate crystals in place of some of the calcium. A few percent of the calcium is replaced this way. Consequently, since the same amount of alkalinity (the carbonate) is used over time, and somewhat less than the balancing amount of calcium, calcium rises if alkalinity is maintained. I’m happy to see the result match the theory, and the calcium level seems fine to me.

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION

Recently, Triton GmbH in Germany has initiated a method of testing many ions at once for a single price. In the US, that service is coordinated by Unique Corals. For $49 they will send you a couple of tubes to collect a tank water sample, and a prepaid mailer to send the sample back to them...

www.reefedition.com

 

[areefer01]

I agree. I was implying that I have read in other forums on Calcium rising over time using AFR. Just wondered if it was more realistic to lower this to a base number like 400 and start from scratch. I will be dosing based on ALK, always have always will. Alk is the problem child, keep him in check period....

I have been using TM AFR now for several years and do not see Calcium raising over time. 210 gallon mixed reef with large LPS and SPS colonies. I dose 90 ml/day.

I just followed the instructions. I got my chemistry to what I wanted which is close to my salt mix of choice. Corrected manually by adding one or both parts of ESV, calculated the AFR dose, lowered it a little bit, and started the dosing. I waited 24 hours, looked at test results, adjusted dose, and repeated. My system took anywhere from 24 to 36 hours to see change so for me it was just going slow.

If I see anything it is typically Alk that is lower and requires a slight adjustment. If that happens I just use my left over ESV 2 part component and correct it. All in all the product is pretty darn easy to use.

 

[dolpator]

I have been using TM AFR now for several years and do not see Calcium raising over time. 210 gallon mixed reef with large LPS and SPS colonies. I dose 90 ml/day.

I just followed the instructions. I got my chemistry to what I wanted which is close to my salt mix of choice. Corrected manually by adding one or both parts of ESV, calculated the AFR dose, lowered it a little bit, and started the dosing. I waited 24 hours, looked at test results, adjusted dose, and repeated. My system took anywhere from 24 to 36 hours to see change so for me it was just going slow.

If I see anything it is typically Alk that is lower and requires a slight adjustment. If that happens I just use my left over ESV 2 part component and correct it. All in all the product is pretty darn easy to use.

Thank you for your response. Which is what answered my initial question. I also have ESV on the standby for ALk and will also use the ESV Magnesium for Manual adjustments. So make an initial dose, wait a minimum of 24 hours and see where you are sitting. Adjust accordingly. Do you dose throughout the day or one time dose each day.

 

[GARRIGA]

But that calcium constantly being consumed and perhaps why best to dose based on calcium vs alkalinity. Easy enough to raise alkalinity without affecting mag and trace assuming all else based on calcium. I’m likely oversimplifying it but I’m always oversimplifying it. Logically don’t see calcium rising beyond want if I dose that based on consumption.

Randy specifically mentions calcium rising when alkalinity maintained which I assumed based on dosing two part off alkalinity unless I misunderstood. I’m not a chemist and admit my flaws in that arena and why I try bring logic based vs following the chemistry which is where I’d likely get myself in trouble.

 

[dolpator]

But that calcium constantly being consumed and perhaps why best to dose based on calcium vs alkalinity. Easy enough to raise alkalinity without affecting mag and trace assuming all else based on calcium. I’m likely oversimplifying it but I’m always oversimplifying it. Logically don’t see calcium rising beyond want if I dose that based on consumption.

Randy specifically mentions calcium rising when alkalinity maintained which I assumed based on dosing two part off alkalinity unless I misunderstood. I’m not a chemist and admit my flaws in that arena and why I try bring logic based vs following the chemistry which is where I’d likely get myself in trouble.

Well I do not know how it is in your tank, but my calcium lowers a lot slower than my Alk. And if I was only dosing to calcium, I know my Alk would fall out of line and would have to dosed it manually to keep it up. I am noticing that just by watching my numbers everyday as my tank settles.

 

[GARRIGA]

Well I do not know how it is in your tank, but my calcium lowers a lot slower than my Alk. And if I was only dosing to calcium, I know my Alk would fall out of line and would have to dosed it manually to keep it up. I am noticing that just by watching my numbers everyday as my tank settles.

But if your dosing calcium formate then perhaps alkalinity showing lower because of the reasons I’ve noted and if you dose based on alkalinity then calcium would be higher than consumption.

Haven’t started AFR. I’m tankless as I just upgraded floors but at some point two tanks going up then my main. Plan on testing AFR once I get coraline established and hoping to move that along with live rocks. Will allow me to test implementation before exposing corals to these antics. Only one way to know. Do it and I’m all about proof of concept before moving forward and constantly adjusting based on results.

Reminded. I don’t perform WC and maintain stabile alkalinity based on carbon dosing and algae which means I’m not expecting loss of alkalinity outside of actual consumption and why for me going off calcium makes the most sense as well as the fact formate needs time to biologically get processed. Why AFR users don’t see readings as quickly as with sodium based solutions. Latter can skew results and perhaps lead one to think they are alkalinity deficient when in fact consumption as expected why it’s lower than expected. Yet in the end I’m still expecting overall 1:1 consumption although that’s how I understand corals and might be wrong but then can only go off literature since no way for me to verify it. Although eliminating base lost from nitrification might anecdotally confirm I’m right. Might now. Time will tell.

 

[areefer01]

Thank you for your response. Which is what answered my initial question. I also have ESV on the standby for ALk and will also use the ESV Magnesium for Manual adjustments. So make an initial dose, wait a minimum of 24 hours and see where you are sitting. Adjust accordingly. Do you dose throughout the day or one time dose each day.

I start dosing about 2 hours after lights on which puts me at 0900 to 2000 as my dosing window.

 

[dolpator]

I start dosing about 2 hours after lights on which puts me at 0900 to 2000 as my dosing window.

Thank you

 

[dolpator]

Thank you

Are you dosing your amount all at once or throughout the 0900 to 2000

 

[Troylee]

Are you dosing your amount all at once or throughout the 0900 to 2000

Honestly don’t think it matters… I dose 80ml over 24 hours but on the other hand Sunny x doses 120ml in a single shot every morning when the lights come on. His tanks amazing and has incredible growth:

 

[areefer01]

Are you dosing your amount all at once or throughout the 0900 to 2000

Sorry about the size of the graph but the yellow measurement is at a 11 ml dose of ESV Transition Elements. The Green lines represent the dosing of AFR. That starts at 0900 and ends at 2000. It takes the total and doses it across the timeline. So each of the small green lines are dose/shots of AFR.

I don't know what is the best way to dose it to be honest. I'm just sharing how I use it and my experience. I've been using it a couple of years now and find it works well for me. This is a 7 year old reef with 2 ppm phosphate and 30 to 40 pm nitrate. I'm lowering phosphates a bit but with how much is bound up in the rocks or substrate it is a slow process. I don't want to make any suggest change(s) that may affect or shock the corals.

 

[areefer01]

Honestly don’t think it matters… I dose 80ml over 24 hours but on the other hand Sunny x doses 120ml in a single shot every morning when the lights come on. His tanks amazing and has incredible growth:

I believe you are right. Once you find the daily amount find something that works. You can always adjust.

I will say that I think I remember asking Lou / Tropic Marin about when to dose and he said similar although I seem to recall lights on being mentioned. I don't know though and believe either will work.

Hope your day is well Troylee!

 

[dolpator]

Honestly don’t think it matters… I dose 80ml over 24 hours but on the other hand Sunny x doses 120ml in a single shot every morning when the lights come on. His tanks amazing and has incredible growth:

Awesome thank you for the confirmation

 

[Pistondog]

I was curious about one more thing. Can AFR be Dosed Controlled through the Neptune. I understand I can say dose 15ml every morning at 7am. but like would it work if you were testing Alk through the Neptune and it dosed based off what the Trident was testing..I only worry because isn't it a delayed result as bacteria is used to convert Alk. So maybe it wouldn't work. HMMM

Due to the alk lag with afr, i dont think this is advisable.
I dose each hour, 24/7. I check the alk and calcium weekly and adjust based on the trend of alk. If its going down, more afr. I use common baking soda to bring the alk closer to target, if low.
When determining your dose check alk every 2 or 3 days. Alk and calcium are used mostly at the same rates, per the chemistry.
Use the afr powder to lower your cost.
Adjust afr to the alk trend. Use something else to get to target dkh.