Tropic Marine All For Reef - Who has stable kh using it?

[twentyleagues]

It doesn’t, so I figure I need to monitor and adjust the dosage to fit my tanks consumption.

Weird to me that afr takes quite a while to see all changes

It was weird when I first came back to reefing. Once I understood the mechanism (Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley ) it just clicked. I think afr is a great and very easy product to use with how I am currently reefing. My thoughts may change when/if I have to dose 100+ml.

 

[kilnakorr]

Post got hijacked a bit, but here's a few more measurements.
As you can see kh has increased 0.4 over 12 hours. This little spike happened during the night and the last little spike happened during daytime.

 

[GSnake]

lou ekus, the spokesperson of tropic marin, has some videos on all for reef. i vaguely remember it being metabolized differently than regular sodium bicarb/sodium hydroxide in the tank. its something formate and bacteria is involved in its use. I think the kh guardian is too accurate, but this seems normal for AFR use, even from my experience with similar results.

 

[twentyleagues]

lou ekus, the spokesperson of tropic marin, has some videos on all for reef. i vaguely remember it being metabolized differently than regular sodium bicarb/sodium hydroxide in the tank. its something formate and bacteria is involved in its use. I think the kh guardian is too accurate, but this seems normal for AFR use, even from my experience with similar results.

Yes exactly. The alk is in the formate and needs the bacteria in the tank to metabolize it for it to be released. This can take 24-48hrs I typically see it within 24hrs. So this is why I dont think using an automated tester to test multiple times a day is useful, also dosing it too many times in a day will delay the overall alk to possibly be metabolized at a time period when consumption isnt at its peak. Lucky for me currently I only dose 20ml and since using it for the last year I know in my tank that alk will "show up" with in 24hrs. I dose in the middle of my light cycle so it should show up again the next day around the same time or at least during my light cycle. As I get into higher consumption and now that I have a dosing pump I may split the dose into a couple parts beginning of cycle and mid or something.

 

[Johnd651]

5ml daily near end of light cycle. Once dialed in, it has stayed stable

 

[gbroadbridge]

Hi

Shifted from 3 part to AFR, about 6 months ago and find the kh value to be very unstable.
I'm dosing same amount every hour, but the kh value is jumping more than I'd like.

I have the KH director testing every 6 hrs (4 times a day. I have done several test in between with a 7.5 kh reference solution, that reads 7.3 every time.

Below are the measuring the past few days.
Note the increase to 8.9, and 6 hrs later ir's 8.1.
Slowly increasing again afterwards.

Is anyone using AFR and having stable kh?

I've been using it on a SPS 10gal nano for the last 18 months and Alk barely moves.

Dosing twice a day and testing weekly.

Dosing 28ml per day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Post got hijacked a bit, but here's a few more measurements.
As you can see kh has increased 0.4 over 12 hours. This little spike happened during the night and the last little spike happened during daytime.

I do not know why you observe these changes, but are you sure they are real and not a testing issue?

How much AFR do you dose per day to what total water volume?

 

[Doctorgori]

I use AFR, alk is fine and stable, but IMO it sorta stinks in as far as calcium creep is concerned:

Ive tried to adjust per TMs instructions to adjust by calcium demand…Ive failed, or dont fully comprehend the method

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use AFR, alk is fine and stable, but IMO it sorta stinks in as far as calcium creep is concerned:

Ive tried to adjust per TMs instructions to adjust by calcium demand…Ive failed, or dont fully comprehend the method

How high did yours get? Are you doing water changes? I used a product with identical alk to calcium ratio, and water changes with normal IO kept calcium in a fine range.

 

[kilnakorr]

I do not know why you observe these changes, but are you sure they are real and not a testing issue?

How much AFR do you dose per day to what total water volume?

Dose 4.5 ml every hour so 108ml a day in roughly 400 l water ( I believe I'm a little the max recommended).
I'm pretty sure it's not a testing error as I have run a reference solution a few times between these odd readings, at comes out 7.3 every time (7,5 reference)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dose 4.5 ml every hour so 108ml a day in roughly 400 l water ( I believe I'm a little the max recommended).
I'm pretty sure it's not a testing error as I have run a reference solution a few times between these odd readings, at comes out 7.3 every time (7,5 reference)

That’s about 1.6 dKH per day. The variability seems about half that at max. If it isn’t testing variability, and not dosing variability, then the consumption is variable in that scale (expected more demand during the day) or variability in the time taken to metabolize the formate (I do not know if that is likely).

I can’t distinguish between these various possible explanations, but switching to bicarbonate dosing for a while might rule out the last one.

 

[kilnakorr]

That’s about 1.6 dKH per day. The variability seems about half that at max. If it isn’t testing variability, and not dosing variability, then the consumption is variable in that scale (expected more demand during the day) or variability in the time taken to metabolize the formate (I do not know if that is likely).

I can’t distinguish between these various possible explanations, but switching to bicarbonate dosing for a while might rule out the last one.

Thanks for the input.
I think I'll try do some testing with the Salifert kit along with the other results. Just to rule out test errors for good. So many ways for a test to go wrong, so might as well start there.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

Mine stays around 8-9dKH in my reef tank! Dose around 2.5-5ml AFR every other day!

 

[Lou Ekus]

I'm sorry that I can't be of more help here. I am not that familiar with the settings on the kH Director to be able to advize. I will just say, and hope it helps a little, that I know some aquarists that have dealt with the alkalinity release delay and automated dosing, byt extending the time period between the dose given by the device and the time of testing, to the maximum setting on the device. This seems to give enough time for most of the conversion to happen. It prevents "over dosing" of the AFR from a prematurely low alkalinity measurement. That helps lesson the bouncing around that the values do in the longrun
Again, I don't know if this is possible with the kH Director. I think the cases I'm refering to were all monitoring with Neptune. But I wanted to mention it, in case it would help.
I would think there would be some "work around" for this, as it does not seem to be a prevailing issue with most AFR users.
Good luck and I hope this helps.

 

[kilnakorr]

I'm sorry that I can't be of more help here. I am not that familiar with the settings on the kH Director to be able to advize. I will just say, and hope it helps a little, that I know some aquarists that have dealt with the alkalinity release delay and automated dosing, byt extending the time period between the dose given by the device and the time of testing, to the maximum setting on the device. This seems to give enough time for most of the conversion to happen. It prevents "over dosing" of the AFR from a prematurely low alkalinity measurement. That helps lesson the bouncing around that the values do in the longrun
Again, I don't know if this is possible with the kH Director. I think the cases I'm refering to were all monitoring with Neptune. But I wanted to mention it, in case it would help.
I would think there would be some "work around" for this, as it does not seem to be a prevailing issue with most AFR users.
Good luck and I hope this helps.

I'm only testing, and do not does based on reults.
The dose is consistent.

 

[areefer01]

I use AFR and dose 90 ml/day. My dosing window starts at 0800 and ends at 1700. Roughly 1 hour after lights on. I should note my lighting schedule is a parabola pattern so slowly ramping up to a peak of 80% then ramps down. In my use case I only dose while lights are on.

I also use automated testing with the Neptune Trident. I do not use the Trident controlled dosing nor do I recommend that with this product. As already noted by others in this thread it is because of how the product works with Alkalinity. I use the standard testing schedule which is 4 (alk), 2 (ca), and 2 (mg).

I do not expect my test results to be a flat line as I'm only testing a couple times a day. I do, however, expect the mean value to be within my alkalinity target which is 8.5. On the other hand if I was testing hourly I would expect to see a different pattern but I do not want to go through that many reagents nor do I believe it would be of any value to me. My target is 8.5 dkh, the mean is 8.7 dkh in this 2 day graph, and the range is .7. My display is fine with it.

My display is 210 gallon mixed reef. All For Reef is the main provider for alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and trace elements. I also dose 10 ml / day of ESV Transition Elements. Nothing else water chemistry wise. I try and do water changes every two to three weeks and will be moving to an auto water change after the 1st of the year. At least that is the plan.

TL; DR - In my use case I do not expect test results to be the same as I only have 4 test points as it relates to alkalinity. 0600, 1200, 1800, and 2400. I focus on the mean and range and make sure that is near my target.

Display:

 

[Troylee]

I can keep it within .5 daily using kalk with it.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I'm only testing, and do not does based on reults.
The dose is consistent.

Just a suggestion... but maybe you could extend the amount of time between dosing and testing? That would mimic these other folks I've worked with on this kind of thing. Again, just a suggestion.

 

[twentyleagues]

Just a suggestion... but maybe you could extend the amount of time between dosing and testing? That would mimic these other folks I've worked with on this kind of thing. Again, just a suggestion.

Since you are here....
Do you recommend a particular way of dosing afr? As in a single dose a day if not a high amount or breaking up any dose into smaller say every couple hrs? I just got a doser and have not set it up yet. I have been dosing 1 time mid day light schedule but its only 20ml.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Since you are here....
Do you recommend a particular way of dosing afr? As in a single dose a day if not a high amount or breaking up any dose into smaller say every couple hrs? I just got a doser and have not set it up yet. I have been dosing 1 time mid day light schedule but its only 20ml.

I have looked at this as it comes up as a quesiton quite often. The truth is that it doesn't seem to matter much. A single dose a day seems to have similar effects to spacing smaller doses out throughout the day. That being said, it makes sence to me that spacing smaller doses out would lesson any "spiking" effect one might see. But i'm nnot sure that I have any real evidence of that being true.