What are the root causes of Cyano?

[SauceyReef]

I have been a hobbyist in marine aquariums for 45 years. I have come to the conclusion that cyan is, like so many things existing yet unseen in our aquariums, a lurking background species. Each aquarium has both a unique and universal common mix of viruses, bacteria and other higher micro species. Cyano is omni present and will appear not just because the fundamental needs are met ( organic material and lack of oxygen).It is NOT about poor flow. That is just something that was printed in the 19980s and parroted over and over on the internet. Indeed, it grows best where strong current brings organics to the cyano mat or cyano that clings to dead rock or coral skeleton. Two triggers for when food supply are adequate are 1) a change in lighting and temperature. 2) The food and frequency of feedings you are putting in the aquarium.

this makes a lot of sense. The cyano in the photo above in my tank is at the highest flow spots.

 

[Anxur]

In my experience when you look what has been changed before a cyanobacterial outbreak the phosphate concentration was lowered with organic additives, especially amino acids. Cyanobacteria can make direct use of amino acids. They seem superior to many other algae taking up phosphates from gravel and rocks and may cover hair algae that suppsedly leach phosphates they take up from rocks. One cause may be that corals have problems to grow with low phosphate concentrations and are bad competitors for trace metals and nitrogen under these conditions.

So for you the cause can be lower level of Po4?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So for you the cause can be lower level of Po4?

I do not think that is exactly what was said. While I’m not necessarily taking his position, it was that cyano can consume the organics, and that trace elements and nitrogen rise allowing continued cyano growth. It is those rising that are the immediate cause in his proposal. One way that might happen is if phosphate is too low for good competition for these by corals.

 

[Hans-Werner]

So for you the cause can be lower level of Po4?

Yes, the whole nutrient thing is quite complicated because all nutrients are interconnected. I suggest 3 single factors causing cyanobacterial growth under amino acid additions and the resulting low phosphate concentrations:

1) Amino acids can be used by cyanobacteria directly as source for nitrogen and organic carbon.

2) Cyanobacteria can take up phosphates from substrates and rocks by direct dissolution of the precipitated phosphates i. e. by the excretion of organic acids. This gives cyanobacteria a competitive advantage over corals under low phosphate conditions.

3) Reduced coral growth under low phosphate conditions makes corals bad competitors for other nutrients, especially for iron and nitrogen. Under optimum conditions for coral growth corals would actually monopolize nitrogen and iron. Under low phosphate conditions the corals are not able to do so giving cyanobacteria and nuisance algae opportunity to grow on these nutrients.

 

[Treefer32]

I have for years had a 340 gallon mixed reef without any cyano on the sand bed. It dissipated on its own when I upped my circulation. I have 4 gyres and 2 MP40s. Most everything nearly maxed out. That said, this past year it appeared viciously.

For me, it was when two things happened:

1. I had accidently bottomed out my phosphates using PHosphate -e. It was taking time to bring them down and I didn't test everyday but dosed. The day Cyano appeared out of nowhere was when my Hanna tested showed 0 ppm in phosphates. (They had been around .2 ppm with regular dosing of 5-10ml of phosphate -e) for weeks.

2. I added in Reef Jerky to my Avast plank auto feeder. Up to then I had just been feeding frozen food. I wanted a way to auto feed for the summer.

In essence, I eliminated phosphates and raised organics. Nitrates never changed hovering between 10-20 ppm all the time with my denitration factory operational.

My sandbed is covered in Cyano, I mixit I blow it off, let it filter out, and the next day the sandbed is covered again. I'm planning a dose of ChemiClean and 2 large water changes.

A couple things about my situation is that my Ph is barely around 8.0 most of the time. It may rise sum if I open doors and windows. I'm dosing baked baking soda (around 240 ml per day or 10 ml per hour) and I'm also dosing Kalkwasser to get the PH up, but my tank chronically runs low ph, which I assume means lower oxygen levels.

What I don't know is whether there's bacteria consuming the oxygen in the water, preventing high oxygen water. Or if it's truly just my house. There's a total of 3 adults in a 3200 square foot house. I find it hard to believe, we all consume too much oxygen and/or exhale too much CO2. I feel like there's more going on than I can understand, but I don't know how to go about proving / disproving.

Either way, I'm going back to chemiclean to remove the cyano and see if things will balance back out. If it returns, I know there's something else wrong.

For filtration:
1. I run a reef mat 1200 with a custom 50 micron paper role.
2. A skimmer rated for a moderate load on a 500 gallon volume.
3. 150 watt UV
4. Algae turf scrubber (L4 from Turbo Aquatics)
5. Nu-Clear Cannister filter filled with Matrix rock (paper catridge all removed) with slow flow over the rocks - this reduced nitrates from 65-70 down to 10-15 sustained.
6. I've also got an extra 30-40 pounds of live rock in my sump for added filtration as well.

 

[SauceyReef]

Could it be as simple as cyano persists from unbalanced nutrients, dead spots, and flow problems?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Could it be as simple as cyano persists from unbalanced nutrients, dead spots, and flow problems?

In many cases, imbalances with nutrients which can act as fuel, similar to how your body reacts when there is too much sugar, lack of skimming, inadequate water flow, overfeeding and lack of water changes in which detritus becomes a bed/foundation for cyano to grow and establish itself

 

[Anxur]

I do not think that is exactly what was said. While I’m not necessarily taking his position, it was that cyano can consume the organics, and that trace elements and nitrogen rise allowing continued cyano growth. It is those rising that are the immediate cause in his proposal. One way that might happen is if phosphate is too low for good competition for these by corals.

I'm adding Po4 Nyos.. Today 10 ml...
(1 ml add 0.0033 in my tank so today I added 0.033...)
Nothing...

Nyos test is not colored... 0.00 Po4... Water is like when i start the test...

And cyano....

 

[Dan_P]

Could it be as simple as cyano persists from unbalanced nutrients, dead spots, and flow problems?

Maybe not so simple.

The term “unbalanced nutrients” means what? I have seen the idea suggested but no one discusses what nutrients we need to measure? What does balanced look like? I don’t think that I would know how to fix unbalanced nutrients.

Dead spots sounds like an interesting idea, but may not help us avoid cyanobacteria because cyanobacteria can grow well under high flow.

For strong Cyanobacteria growth to be present, it seems there is a requirement for several things to be present. Bright lights are important for strong growth. All reef tanks have this. Cyanobacteria food is needed. This seems to be organic in nature, for example, exudates from stressed algae. Lack of predators. There seems to be a lack of organisms the devour cyanobacteria. Maybe our aquaria lack of cyanobacteria killing virus.

Anyway, just some ideas to kick around.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm adding Po4 Nyos.. Today 10 ml...
(1 ml add 0.0033 in my tank so today I added 0.033...)
Nothing...

Nyos test is not colored... 0.00 Po4... Water is like when i start the test...

And cyano....

I don’t know if it will help or hurt the cyano, but it’s certainly desirable for corals to have enough phosphate and it usually takes far more than calculated due to a lot of early doses binding to rock and sand.

 

[Anxur]

I don’t know if it will help or hurt the cyano, but it’s certainly desirable for corals to have enough phosphate and it usually takes far more than calculated due to a lot of early doses binding to rock and sand.

I've read that unbalance nutrients can be the cause.... So... At the moment, I've 3-4 ppm No3 and 0.00 Po4 with test Nyos...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've read that unbalance nutrients can be the cause.... So... At the moment, I've 3-4 ppm No3 and 0.00 Po4 with test Nyos...

I don’t happen to agree that “imbalances” directly help cyano, but Hans-Werner’s point that phosphate too low can harm other competitors for things the cyano consumes (such as organics) may be important.

In any case, cyano thrives well in cases where both N and P take in all sorts of values.

Dinos are the main pest that can often be beaten by raining N and P. Cyano, not so often.

 

[SDchris]

Changes in BOD or SOD really seems to explain all the different scenarios reasonably well.
- Put a plastic lid on a sand bed for a day or two and see what happens days later.
- Raise the temperature 3 or 4 degrees and what shows up.
- Start dosing simple organic carbon.
All those situations will increase the availability of all nutrients close to the sediment / water interface.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I fully agree with Randy that cyanos grow under nearly all kinds of conditions, more or less.

I tried to explain why cyanobacteria tend to occur or spread under certain conditions.

Under most conditions cyanobacteria are ugly but harmless, in contrast to hair algae. Hair algae and other algae may directly affect corals, cyanobacteria usually not.

Conditions under which cyanobacteria and corals grow well may be quite similar. Cyanobacteria are no indicators of adverse conditions for corals. Cyanobacteria and corals may grow quite well at the same time. This is also in contrast to growth of most nuisance algae.

 

[Anxur]

I don’t happen to agree that “imbalances” directly help cyano, but Hans-Werner’s point that phosphate too low can harm other competitors for things the cyano consumes (such as organics) may be important.

In any case, cyano thrives well in cases where both N and P take in all sorts of values.

Dinos are the main pest that can often be beaten by raining N and P. Cyano, not so often.

So... Chemiclean and amen?

 

[GARRIGA]

I've had cyano carbon dosing, low nutrients, high nutrients but mostly where the flow is low. Peroxide seemed to reduce it or slow it down. Became apparent only solution was flow. Still no clue if it's even harmless left on it's own in areas where other life don't grow. Perfecting flow in a square box might require more unnatural components in the tank than wanted.

 

[SauceyReef]

Maybe not so simple.

The term “unbalanced nutrients” means what? I have seen the idea suggested but no one discusses what nutrients we need to measure? What does balanced look like? I don’t think that I would know how to fix unbalanced nutrients.

Dead spots sounds like an interesting idea, but may not help us avoid cyanobacteria because cyanobacteria can grow well under high flow.

For strong Cyanobacteria growth to be present, it seems there is a requirement for several things to be present. Bright lights are important for strong growth. All reef tanks have this. Cyanobacteria food is needed. This seems to be organic in nature, for example, exudates from stressed algae. Lack of predators. There seems to be a lack of organisms the devour cyanobacteria. Maybe our aquaria lack of cyanobacteria killing virus.

Anyway, just some ideas to kick around.

Is this a trick question? It is pretty simple. Most aquarists look for a 10:1 ratio of Nitrate and Phosphate. If you have 50-100ppm nitrates and zero traceable phosphates, or the other way around well you could probably say your nutrients are unbalanced. Balanced nutrients is one of the most discussed upon topics in the hobby AND one of the most important aspects of keeping a tank healthy...Curious what you are even talking about?? (actually not really)

Furthermore you can have a lot of flow and still have dead spots. It is about how you arrange your wavemakers, and how you clean your tank...

Dead spots in your words = "food for cyano". If all tanks have strong lights, why do all tanks not have cyano??

You think it is "lack of predators"??? Very intelligent / scientific consensus

 

[SauceyReef]

I fully agree with Randy that cyanos grow under nearly all kinds of conditions, more or less.

I tried to explain why cyanobacteria tend to occur or spread under certain conditions.

Under most conditions cyanobacteria are ugly but harmless, in contrast to hair algae. Hair algae and other algae may directly affect corals, cyanobacteria usually not.

Conditions under which cyanobacteria and corals grow well may be quite similar. Cyanobacteria are no indicators of adverse conditions for corals. Cyanobacteria and corals may grow quite well at the same time. This is also in contrast to growth of most nuisance algae.

I agree with this. I had some bad cyano out breaks when my corals were doing great, and nutrients were well balanced. Maybe it can just go down to dead spots and flow issues, and I was wrong about nutrients being a factor. Cleaning out the dead spots and manual removal has helped me beat it every time. In my 15 years of reefing I have never once used chemi clean.

 

[MnFish1]

Do every other day 20% water changes with RO/DI water and bacteria like algae growth will be zero. To me, at least, that proves it is organic / nitrate/ phosphate driven. Rich pellets drop a certain ‘post digestion’ fertilizer into the ambient water parameters. PS always have a high quality skimmer running

I am not a big believer in NP ratios, etc - since I've seen Cyano in nearly every condition - and even after many years, I can't predict where it might grow. When it comes to water chemistry, local levels may be more important than levels in the tank. I have noticed that no matter what the chemistries, cyano does not do well in tanks with high flow.

 

[MnFish1]

Good afternoon Lasse. The participation of urease and the hydrolysis of urea in calcification only makes sense when urea is taken up by the coral and hydrolyzed at the sites of calcification.

Is it not hard to differentiate where/how the urea is broken down? i.e. I would think bacteria would do it much more quickly than coral. Bacteria, then, of course can be taken into coral - so it would be interesting to hear how you managed to separate which does what merely by adding urea to the tank?. Many bacteria contain urease.