What is the actual evidence for marine algae growth vs lighting spectrum?

[oreo54]

Saw one YouTube study where different lights were used to grow (I think) lettuce. Turned out green was the best. Go figure.

Yea it gets all complicated ..

https://www.producegrower.com/article/production-leds-on-lettuce-white-light-versus-red-blue-light/

 

[Lasse]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844021026281#:~:text=Significantly%20(P%20%3C%200.05)%20the,ellipsoidea.

Note they used a " cool white" led

Another opinion ..


Higher plant response for fun..RGB vs white .

Effects of LED photoperiods and light qualities on in vitro growth and chlorophyll fluorescence of Cunninghamia lanceolata - BMC Plant Biology

Background Cunninghamia lanceolata (C. lanceolata) is the main fast-growing timber species in southern China. As an alternative to conventional lighting systems, LED has been demonstrated to be an artificial flexible lighting source for commercial micropropagation. The application of LED can...

bmcplantbiol.biomedcentral.com

I have a comment on this. They have used a very narrow red LED with almost nothing above 680 nm which means that the Emerson effect is not fully utilized. It is possible that a wider red LED that includes more wavelengths above 680 would give a different result.

Well there is the fact that unlike most other photosynthetic organisms pure red in corals is a bad thing.
There is something different about it.

Yes but it have been tested in monochrome red light - not for red as a part of a whole spectrum

Based on this, algaes that greatly benefit from red would be those that naturally grow near or at the surface, such as turf algae which grows on rocks and piers.

Its right that most of the red has disappear the first 15 meters but but around 50 % of the blue have disappear too - from here

Maybe the white light was just a lower PAR source, not that red is special. Have tried just blue light?

It was nearly the same PAR. It was around 6500 K - yes - rather much blue.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Yea it gets all complicated ..

https://www.producegrower.com/article/production-leds-on-lettuce-white-light-versus-red-blue-light/

This is interesting because lettuce is a 3 dimensional crop and red and green is both very good in penetrating living tissue and hence - there is only a low shadow effect. Blue will be adsorbed direct and lower part (and inner parts) of the lettuce gets shadowed from the blue photons - they are already used in the surface leaves of the lettuce. IMO - its different with crops that more 2 dimensional in its light harvesting. Compare thin skinned SPS with deep bodied LPS/softies.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[oreo54]

I have a comment on this. They have used a very narrow red LED with almost nothing above 680 nm which means that the Emerson effect is not fully utilized. It is possible that a wider red LED that includes more wavelengths above 680 would give a different result.



Sincerely Lasse

Yes that is possible. And I need to qualify my prevous answer.. High par 660nm red light will bleach corals..
Here is from another study using a 660nm red led.
Though it was also a very narrow spread:

Red Light Represses the Photophysiology of the Scleractinian Coral Stylophora pistillata - PMC

Light spectrum plays a key role in the biology of symbiotic corals, with blue light resulting in higher coral growth, zooxanthellae density, chlorophyll a content and photosynthesis rates as compared to red light. However, it is still unclear ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results with an anomaly on the last white..

My guess is that RO builds up and there was no concurrent creation of the xanthrophylls or other methods of cleansing. Regardless of the Emerson effect (and possibly even due to it in some situations) they were just overwhelmed and needed to mitigate the damage (bleach). Just a guess.

In addition, we determined how these light regimes affected the overall colouration of this species, as D'Angelo et al. [7] found that the production of colourful fluorescent host pigments, possibly acting as photoprotectants and antioxidants [12], [13], [14], is enhanced by blue light.

If you look at all plants most form few if any carotinoids/xanthrophylls under just red light. Well that may be an oversimplification.

I'm sure that's a bit of a simplistic explanation though.

 

[KrisReef]

I like how the proofs continue, sans one or even two outbound jobs worked and linked. Good thing no proof of independent control is required

Excellent theory thread. Why doesn't someone assured here post up in the nuisance algae forum asking for new jobs sent to them, to work live time, after upping the whites

I'll work one rn. Send them here. I'm going to work it blue though, you work the white.

Nothing is really on the line here until a live time job is worked. It's smoke and brandy snifters.

Test the counter theory in other people's reef where we can't shape results.

This is why I like work threads, they instantly cull out nonparticipants. In theory threads, everybody is correct.

When working with other people's reef tanks, we bleach their corals less, and algaefy their system less, working in blues. At home, everyone's a merlin but this does not transmit well to others, that's the rule. That rule is hard to discover if we're not producing jobs on file.

Finding the link between blue vs white in reef rehab work came at a significant cost and time spent doing jobs. To question the link, lemme see jobs worked without it. Any reef job where spectrum factored will do. For us, it's factored in reef tank transfer jobs and in algae fix work.

We all start out thinking our way transfers well to others

sign up for a test in the nuisance algae forum x 20 = reveals true hidden gems

Or, just stay safe chatting about likely outcomes in the cigar lounge he he

Yes, but you may be puffing on your own stogie my dear friend?

A proper scientific designed and executed experiment may provide “proof” that RHF is asking for .

You method of 10 or 20 reefers in their separate environments may be useful for additional discussion but it’s not robust for making statements less vague than the stuff I (and many others) have posted thus far.

But I do see your point that a better more reliable answer could be uncovered for practical applications if I or somebody out there was not so lazy and did a work thread to examine real life results.
& yet-
Many people have adjusted the spectrum of their tank lights already and I think Randy is wondering how come we still don’t have “proof?”

No smoke, just mirrors (that have been shown in some tanks to distract fish from fighting between tank mates.) please, I’m not trying to fight except perhaps for proper scientific methods first for proof, followed by work threads to validate or reject findings .

Happy Sunday. I need to dose now.

 

[KrisReef]

From my experience this wouldn't work, the fish will eat it up- they love cannabis, especially if you crumble it up under water like frozen food..

I’m not a big fan of the Can especially since it became legal in California. Still, if I did have an underwater crop I would not allow crabs, fishes, or other things nibble on my “Mari-culture.”

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I like how the proofs continue, sans one or even two outbound jobs worked and linked. Good thing no proof of independent control is required

Excellent theory thread. Why doesn't someone assured here post up in the nuisance algae forum asking for new jobs sent to them, to work live time, after upping the whites

I'll work one rn. Send them here. I'm going to work it blue though, you work the white.

Nothing is really on the line here until a live time job is worked. It's smoke and brandy snifters.

Test the counter theory in other people's reef where we can't shape results.

This is why I like work threads, they instantly cull out nonparticipants. In theory threads, everybody is correct.

When working with other people's reef tanks, we bleach their corals less, and algaefy their system less, working in blues. At home, everyone's a merlin but this does not transmit well to others, that's the rule. That rule is hard to discover if we're not producing jobs on file.

Finding the link between blue vs white in reef rehab work came at a significant cost and time spent doing jobs. To question the link, lemme see jobs worked without it. Any reef job where spectrum factored will do. For us, it's factored in reef tank transfer jobs and in algae fix work.

We all start out thinking our way transfers well to others

sign up for a test in the nuisance algae forum x 20 = reveals true hidden gems

Or, just stay safe chatting about likely outcomes in the cigar lounge he he

For me personally, I’m not trying to solve someone’s algae problem. I’m trying to understand if there is actually a relationship to spectrum, and if so, why.

 

[VintageReefer]

For me personally, I’m not trying to solve someone’s algae problem. I’m trying to understand if there is actually a relationship to spectrum, and if so, why.

Solve both at once. Eliminate all light

Algae problem diminishes solving tank issue.

identify spectrum of light that was removed. That’s one of the “problem bands” that will grow algae

 

[KrisReef]

For me personally, I’m not trying to solve someone’s algae problem. I’m trying to understand if there is actually a relationship to spectrum, and if so, why.

We need to petition our government to provide funding for a study to discover the effects, if any, of light spectrum and the growth of pest algae in a reef tank.

I would hypothesize that algae does not grow in an unlighted tank. I have no alternative hypothesis, but I’m working on that.

@VintageReefer stole my idea?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Solve both at once. Eliminate all light

Algae problem diminishes solving tank issue.

identify spectrum of light that was removed. That’s one of the “problem bands” that will grow algae

Or water. My empty tank in the garage didn’t grow any algae at all in the last eight years. lol

 

[KrisReef]

Or water. My empty tank in the garage didn’t grow any algae at all in the last eight years. lol

Next time someone asks how to get rid of algae I’m going to give them this bullet proof solution!

 

[Lasse]

y guess is that RO builds up and there was no concurrent creation of the xanthrophylls or other methods of cleansing. Regardless of the Emerson effect (and possibly even due to it in some situations) they were just overwhelmed and needed to mitigate the damage (bleach). Just a guess.

On the spot. I have seen reports cited by Dana that red photons do not induce "sunscreen" proteins and I also will include lack if inducing anti radicals, However - blue does and blue photons are as common as red photons in the swallow waters. Corals will produce "sunscreens" proteins - trigged by the blue photons. hence protect the coral for the red photons on the fly. it means that in nature and with full spectra light red photons give no harm to our corals - IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Not driving folks into work threads isn't working

We're getting idle. Not pushing boundaries. It's OK to blame the push on me / needs external locus of blame for not doing works threads

This is to drive reefing evolution it's not to be mean.

Honestly: if three of you guys went right into the n.a. forum and offered to help someone in a deeply challenged tank don't you think they'd appreciate it 100%? They're asking for help daily, in the posts.


And every day you guys aim your best written retorts here, we're missing out on science patterning literally everyone wants to see.


100% of readers want to see people in this thread working jobs, testing light impacts live time. In the end, the very thing I'm asking for isn't bad, or mean, it's to work aquariums where the requests are. If someone doesn't drive at least a few ok let's do this challenges into the respective forums we are evolving at a snails pace


We should all be competing for results vs quality of paragraphs. Derive from peoples after pics what's truth in pattern: and what seems good from the sidelines.

And for @KrisReef I have no problem with you calling someone out you thought was being brash or short sighted that's good on you for speaking up. No prob from me. My response is in order to get cozy bears out of the cave I've gotta push.

Lastly, how can you get mad at someone who does the simple thing they're asking of you.

I present to you gentleman a fair square balanced gentleman's request and you all freak out



Fine I'll go work my threads without ya but I'll watch here for the final truths on the matter.

 

[lbacha]

One somewhat complicating factor is that if a light can produce all wavelengths with equal efficiency, there are more red photons produced than blue photons at the same watts consumed.

I feel this is the reason people believe blue grows less algae. People think running there lights at all blues = the same output as running all whites (which is where most of the red spectrum comes from). In reality if the fixture has 50% blue Leds and 50% white running only blues is much less par than running all whites. It’s complicated because newer lights have a lot more blue leds than white bs the older lights that were 50/50.

To sum it up by switching to running only blue LEDs they are really just reducing the par which reduces the algae.

The other thing is most grow lights are actually purple not red (I know refugium lights look reddish but it is more purple) and that is because a lot of grow lights have blue and red LEDs it is the white LEDs they remove to reduce the yellow and green light. This way they focus all the power of the fixture into the spectrums that plants use the most.

 

[gregrock68]

I read all the time about comments relating algae growth to red light and not to blue light.

What is the evidence supporting that?

Assuming it is real, what is the hypothesized reason for it?

Watching

 

[IceNein]

This is an interesting question, and out of all the questions that are raised, this seems like one of the easier to perform an actually scientific test. Keeping only algae is a lot simpler than keeping algae and animals.

So it seems like you should be able to set up a row of five gallon aquariums with a type of macroalgae, all with the same lights, and then set up ten with a wide spectrum and ten with a blue spectrum, adjust for the same power output, and see which ones grow better. I assume you would just feed the algae with liquid fertilizer to a desired N/P value and top off the feeding to maintain that.

Anyway it would be cool if someone wanted to do something like that, although I certainly don't.

 

[Lasse]

This is an interesting question, and out of all the questions that are raised, this seems like one of the easier to perform an actually scientific test. Keeping only algae is a lot simpler than keeping algae and animals.

So it seems like you should be able to set up a row of five gallon aquariums with a type of macroalgae, all with the same lights, and then set up ten with a wide spectrum and ten with a blue spectrum, adjust for the same power output, and see which ones grow better. I assume you would just feed the algae with liquid fertilizer to a desired N/P value and top off the feeding to maintain that.

Anyway it would be cool if someone wanted to do something like that, although I certainly don't.

At least according to some Chaetomorpha species and turf algae - the answer - IMO - is already there and I agree with @lbacha - my bold

I feel this is the reason people believe blue grows less algae. People think running there lights at all blues = the same output as running all whites (which is where most of the red spectrum comes from). In reality if the fixture has 50% blue Leds and 50% white running only blues is much less par than running all whites. It’s complicated because newer lights have a lot more blue leds than white bs the older lights that were 50/50.

To sum it up by switching to running only blue LEDs they are really just reducing the par which reduces the algae.

The other thing is most grow lights are actually purple not red (I know refugium lights look reddish but it is more purple) and that is because a lot of grow lights have blue and red LEDs it is the white LEDs they remove to reduce the yellow and green light. This way they focus all the power of the fixture into the spectrums that plants use the most.

and do not forget the penetration ability of red photons in living tissues. They create a 3 dimensional growth pattern - the photons not used in the first layers of biomass will be used further down in the biomass - very low "shadowing" effect - the same for green wavelengths even if it is more - IMO - energy losses using green photons especially if the read spectra is spread on both sides of 680 nm (using the Emerson effect). Do not forget that every harvest photon of different energy quanta (the lower the wavelength - the higher the energy quanta) most be transferred to the energy quanta of photons of 680 and 700 nm wavelength in order to be used in photosystem 1 (700 nm) and photosystem 2 (680 nm) action centres. Photosynthesis is quantum mechanics in its glory.

Sincerely Lasse