Why are reef tank rocks devoid of life?

[Garf]

Do you know if bacteria (nitrifying) have a preference on what media they prefer?

I did a Google fest a couple of years ago on this, plastic is preferred by nitrifiers it appears.

 

[BristleWormHater]

Many of those interesting sponges disappeared after a while. Some stuck around. A few interesting corals also stuck around like my hidden cup corals. Overall, I think it's hard to maintain them in our closed systems unless you are providing abundant and diverse food sources. Note: lighting and flow needs to be adequate also. Think it's just hard to meet their needs, some of which we don't even know.

+1 If it's not something usually available in the industry then there's probably not a lot of info.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Really? You asked me to hear your brainstorming. I said let me hear it.

You gave your opinion. My knowledge was limited in that subject, so I waited for someone with more science, chemistry, and biology experience to give their opinion.

What more do you want from me? I’m doing the responsible thing by not pretending I know something when I don’t.

Brainstorming by definition is an exchange of ideas not waiting for someone to prove the other person wrong, you asked for brainstorming not me. And went quiet from there hoping someone proved me wrong. To me that’s the annoy part it’s not that you didn’t accept the recommendation.
If you remember correctly I actually suggested for you to speak with @livinlifeinBKK as he has some experience with those stars.

I wasn’t joking in my post. Why would I be joking?

It’s just fun brainstorming. What ingredients would you change?

 

[Miami Reef]

Brainstorming by definition is an exchange of ideas not waiting for someone to prove the other person wrong, you asked for brainstorming not me. And went quiet from there hoping someone proved me wrong. To me that’s the annoy part it’s not that you didn’t accept the recommendation.

I didn’t explicitly ask what to change. I just stated my ideas. Then you responded with this.

Not sure if you are serious or joking but it does sounds like a plan.

Personally I would replace some of the ingredients if you were serious about it.

I wasn’t joking in my post. Why would I be joking?

It’s just fun brainstorming. What ingredients would you change?

I just asked what you would change since you suggested it. I don’t know about reef actif. I was just waiting for other opinions. Since I didn’t know.

I haven’t seen anyone disprove what you said. They just asked for evidence for the claims.

 

[Miami Reef]

If you look at the timestamps, Randy almost immediately replied back. I didn’t side with anyone. It was between you, Randy, and Hans. I was just reading from the sidelines to absorb the information.

I did like 1 of Randy’s posts when he asked for confirmation, since that was important to me when making claims.

Randy only asked for evidence of the claims. He also asked Hans. I don’t know why you feel threatened by me. I’m a simple human that is on a reef tank forum.

 

[Hans-Werner]

There’s more acetate consumed in the ocean than any other organic. It is at the core of many biological processes including the breakdown of carbohydrates.

I’m not making any representation about its effects vs any other organic, but it should not be dismissed out of hand.

In the fermentation of macroalgae by algivorous fish also acetate is produced. Acetate is an intermediate in many processes. It is not floating around and not forming concentrations like particulates of detritus do. In fact in the detritus there may be some elevated concentration of acetate, but it is the result and an intermediate of microbial processes based on the detritus and algae. Beginning with acetate will not support the same microbiology as detritus and algae will.

 

[rishma]

In the fermentation of macroalgae by algivorous fish also acetate is produced. Acetate is an intermediate in many processes. It is not floating around and not forming concentrations like particulates of detritus do. In fact in the detritus there may be some elevated concentration of acetate, but it is the result and an intermediate of microbial processes based on the detritus and algae. Beginning with acetate will not support the same microbiology as detritus and algae will.

This thread made me Interested in acetate on coral reefs. I had never really considered it before other than as a carbon source in my tank. I did some reading so I’m certainly no expert, but your comment that acetate “is not floating around” confused me a little. I am not sure what you mean. Seems like there is a lot of acetate on coral reefs but maybe not in comparison to detritus?

I do think the big opportunity in our methods is the relative lack of particulate foods. Trying to achieve ocean reef like food without nutrient problems seems like a worthy goal.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I think key is to understand that detritus and algae fragments are heterogenous at every scale. Detritus particles may consist of fragments of different organisms. Every organism may contain different biopolymers and other substances. Many algal polysaccharides and other biopolymers are copolymers which consist of different monomers. This (bio-)chemical diversity is the basis for biodiversity at every scale, also at the scale of a single life rock.

 

[Hans-Werner]

This thread made me Interested in acetate on coral reefs. I had never really considered it before other than as a carbon source in my tank. I did some reading so I’m certainly no expert, but your comment that acetate “is not floating around” confused me a little. I am not sure what you mean. Seems like there is a lot of acetate on coral reefs but maybe not in comparison to detritus?

I do think the big opportunity in our methods is the relative lack of particulate foods. Trying to achieve ocean reef like food without nutrient problems seems like a worthy goal.

Just to understand you better: Where do you think that the acetate is located in corals reefs? What is the concentration in the water column? What did you find out?

 

[rishma]

Just to understand you better: Where do you think that the acetate is located in corals reefs? What is the concentration in the water column? What did you find out?

I don’t know the answers. I assumed the acetate was in the water until it’s consumed by bacteria or something else, which I think could be a quick process.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I don’t know the answers. I assumed the acetate was in the water until it’s consumed by bacteria or something else, which I think could be a quick process.

Yes, but this would throw up the question, where it comes from. It would have to be a massive supply if it should reach a significant concentration and this would quickly be degraded by bacteria and may even cause bacterial blooms. This is why I question this idea and cannot follow it very well.

Detritus may be several ppm by dry weight where it accumulates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just to understand you better: Where do you think that the acetate is located in corals reefs? What is the concentration in the water column? What did you find out?

It is all over. It is taken up very readily by a wide range of organisms which is why concentrations are kept low. It is also produced rapidly and has a high turnover rate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, but this would throw up the question, where it comes from. It would have to be a massive supply if it should reach a significant concentration and this would quickly be degraded by bacteria and may even cause bacterial blooms. This is why I question this idea and cannot follow it very well.

Detritus may be several ppm by dry weight where it accumulates.

several comments.

Because something accumulates due to low overall consumption rates does not, by itself, seem a good reason to elect it.

You talk about a large range of biopolymers in detritus , which is true. But is reef Actif a wide range of different polymers, or just a few?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here’s a paper suggesting acetate transfer ultimately into corals is important:

Consistent with the results presented here, colonies of A. pulchra growing near the reef crest on New Caledonian reefs were dominated by Endozoicomonas while those living in lagoons were dominated not only by Simkaniaceae but also Moraxellaceae (Camp et al., 2020). Endozoicomonas spp. may secrete excess acetate which Simkania spp. may use as an energy source, ultimately aiding coral metabolism (Maire et al., 2023).

Seasonal dynamics and environmental drivers of tissue and mucus microbiomes in the staghorn coral Acropora pulchra - PMC

Rainfall-induced coastal runoff represents an important environmental impact in near-shore coral reefs that may affect coral-associated bacterial microbiomes. Shifts in microbiome community composition and function can stress corals and ultimately ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[tetris rox]

Here’s a paper suggesting acetate transfer ultimately into corals is important:

Consistent with the results presented here, colonies of A. pulchra growing near the reef crest on New Caledonian reefs were dominated by Endozoicomonas while those living in lagoons were dominated not only by Simkaniaceae but also Moraxellaceae (Camp et al., 2020). Endozoicomonas spp. may secrete excess acetate which Simkania spp. may use as an energy source, ultimately aiding coral metabolism (Maire et al., 2023).

Seasonal dynamics and environmental drivers of tissue and mucus microbiomes in the staghorn coral Acropora pulchra - PMC

Rainfall-induced coastal runoff represents an important environmental impact in near-shore coral reefs that may affect coral-associated bacterial microbiomes. Shifts in microbiome community composition and function can stress corals and ultimately ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hi, Everyone! It is great to hear so many opinions and helpful knowledge. I've tried keeping starfish and not had success, and similar to many reefers, kept (yellow) sponges for some time while losing others (pineapple) sponge. The pineapple sponge was eaten by limpets.

It is an interesting concept that linckea starfish may eat this exact type of biofilm. Years ago I had clownfish and a six line wrasse that just loved the waste given off of the lps. It was mostly clear. I had (sun coral, tracyphilla). It is possible these echinoderms are just more specialied, just as we see snails, urchins, as well as other animals relying on plants and films created by green algaes, coraline algae etc., or having algae as a supplement to their diet.

 

[Hans-Werner]

You talk about a large range of biopolymers in detritus , which is true. But is reef Actif a wide range of different polymers, or just a few?

It is a mix of a range of biopolymers and several of them are copolymers. Well, it could be tested if a more "crude" mix wich is less purified would be advantageous but to me it seemed not the case. The first versions where with only two copolymers. Adding further biopolymers had a limited but in my eyes visible effect.

But here we are talking about live rock. One of the things I have noticed was new growth of Neomeris on older live rock after dosing Reef Actif. Unfortunately it disappeared again after some time, most likely because these algae are sensitive to grazing, or some other nutrient got limiting.

Consistent with the results presented here, colonies of A. pulchra growing near the reef crest on New Caledonian reefs were dominated by Endozoicomonas while those living in lagoons were dominated not only by Simkaniaceae but also Moraxellaceae (Camp et al., 2020). Endozoicomonas spp. may secrete excess acetate which Simkania spp. may use as an energy source, ultimately aiding coral metabolism (Maire et al., 2023).

What are the substrates of Endozoicomonas in corals for acetate production? One substrate may be DMSP according to this article. DMSP seems to be produced in large amounts by zooxanthellae and coral host and seems to be an indicator of thermotolerance. Most likely other substrates will also be degraded to acetate. If you dose acetate it will likely not feed the Endozoicomonas, and the Simkania maybe, if not other, faster growing bacteria have degraded it to CO2 faster.

When we come to the substrates of the bacterial growth: I found Reef Actif by a kind of screening of different compounds for their effects. I saw clearly visible effects after just a few days. I have spent years to find out what might cause these effects and I am still not 100 % sure. Does it take place on the corals directly or is it something on the rocks and bottom that is excreted into the water? Maybe both.

Interesting read and interesting read on microbiomes of corals.

We will not finally clarify here what is causing the different growth on live rock and different biodiversity in reef aquaria. I think, the proof is in the pudding. Many reefers are dosing acetate. What do they observe? Do they observe increased biodiversity? Are there changes in the corals not related to long-term effects on nutrients?

 

[sixty_reefer]

We will not finally clarify here what is causing the different growth on live rock and different biodiversity in reef aquaria. I think, the proof is in the pudding. Many reefers are dosing acetate. What do they observe? Do they observe increased biodiversity? Are there changes in the corals not related to long-term effects on nutrients?

Hi @Hans-Werner did you observed in any of your systems an increase in Protozoa?

This is a small video from the protein skimmer collection cup and one of my first observations in this experiment I’ve been carrying out.



From there the explosion in microscopic life is just growing day by day

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hi @Hans-Werner did you observed in any of your systems an increase in Protozoa?

This is a small video from the protein skimmer collection cup and one of my first observations in this experiment I’ve been carrying out.



From there the explosion in microscopic life is just growing day by day

Yes, I found mainly foraminifera of different sizes, but also ciliates, flagellates and amoeba.

 

[LiverockRocks]

In my bigger tanks, it didnt stay like that.

When I set up a 5g, the tunicates and sponges all survived long term.

The difference? The 5g had no filtration outside of the rock itself. Just water changes.

I think it had more particulate matter with no skimmer or socks, carbon, etc.

You got it.

Some of the most beautiful TBS tanks are very simple breeders with no skimmer, no dosing, no uv, no socks...just water changes.

Btw, we hold ocean farmed rock in natural sea water; no skimming, no dosing, no carbon, no socks, etc. Heavy particulates in the water column at the farm (and in our holding system) maintain the needs of live rock lifeforms long term.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes, I found mainly foraminifera of different sizes, but also ciliates, flagellates and amoeba.

I need to look again Ito the substrate to see what I find, I’ve been concentrating on the pelagic organisms, I’ve had a lot of paramecium, though that may be connected to the growth found on the dendronephthya.
I don’t have fish in mine maybe one of the reasons i haven’t seen many Protozoa predators.