Why do people buy expensive ATO?

[BeanAnimal]

. But my point was, why are these expensive ATO systems completely ignoring salinity monitoring?

Because it is not needed. The ATO is there to replace evaporated water.

To that end -- I explained my setup to show an extreme case of water coming and going from the system with absolutely NO salinity driven decision making -- and the ATO just does what it does.

It worked for 15+ years with just the ATO and no dosing pumps. I did not do a water change for maybe 7 years now... and for 5 of those looked at the tank maybe one time a month or less. ATO was just a simple float valve attached to an RO/DI system.... no automation at all, no probe, no test kits. Never bother to take the refractometer of the drawer for 5 years. I would scrape salt creep back in once in a while.

 

[subodhs]

Unless you are using a two part, salinity hardly changes at all.

I can only say why I “ignore it”: because I consider it a bad risk reward decision. Why risk a problem to fix a non problem?

@Randy Holmes-Farley Ah, I see your point! But here’s the thing—I’m lazy. Lugging buckets? Not happening. That’s why I rely on continuous automatic water changes, which means replacing with saltwater. But here’s the thing again: I’m too lazy to mix saltwater to an accurate level every time.

So really, it’s not a salinity problem... it’s a "me is so lazy" problem. I knew I was missing something lol.

 

[Pistondog]

So, this might just prove how clueless I am, but I have to ask: Why are people shelling out $200, $300, or more for Auto Top-Off (ATO) systems? A quick search at BRS shows all the popular options: Smart ATO, ATO+, and a bunch of other fancy-sounding names. But at their core, these are just level sensors, a water pump, and maybe a leak sensor. Sometimes, two sensors.

Yet, they still don’t include a salinity sensor, or any "smart" feature to differentiate between topping off with RO or saltwater. You’re still manually ensuring your freshly made saltwater is at 1.026. So, what exactly are we paying for? Is it the marketing? The sleek design? The peace of mind? Snake oil?

Before you roast me, let me explain my setup. I’ve got a continuous automatic water change hooked up to my Apex. My salinity probe decides whether the top-off should use RO or saltwater to maintain levels within hi/lo sensor ranges. It’s been running flawlessly -- 2 years on my current tank and 5 years on my previous build—and it keeps salinity in check (within reason). Sure, I keep an eye on the salinity probe for bubbles and occasional recalibrations, but it’s been reliable and low-maintenance.



Pictures for proof:

And programming is quite simple literally:

So, seriously, what am I missing? Is there some magic feature I’m overlooking? Or is it just my approach that’s a bit “DIY unconventional”? Feel free to call me daft I’m genuinely curious what makes these systems worth the price for so many reefers.

There are some smarts in the Tunze controllers to help prevent overfilling.
Bottom line is I'm happy to pay that amount for a standalone solution that I dont have to diy/invent, and not rely on apex.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Bottom line is I'm happy to pay that amount for a standalone solution that I dont have to diy/invent, and not rely on apex.

I think the OPs initial question was why spend big bucks for a sensor and a pump.

It didn't help when he introduced his setup. Not to mention using the conductivity probe to determine when and if to top off with saltwater.

I share OPs position in that I never once understood why people spent so much for a sensor and pump.

For the longest time, I used a single relay triggered by a set of float switches to correct for evaporation. The relay controlled 110v outlet that turned on and off a pump. That's essentially the same concept of most stand alone ATOs. However instead of paying upwards of $200, the same thing can be achieved with a few things off of the internet for a substantial fraction of cost.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Ah, I see your point! But here’s the thing—I’m lazy. Lugging buckets? Not happening. That’s why I rely on continuous automatic water changes, which means replacing with saltwater. But here’s the thing again: I’m too lazy to mix saltwater to an accurate level every time.

So really, it’s not a salinity problem... it’s a "me is so lazy" problem. I knew I was missing something lol.

I similarly didn’t focus too much on matching my AWC water. But if I wanted salinity to rise in the tank, I’d either make the next batch of new salt water a little stronger, or add a little more of it. Same in reverse for lowering it. Exact salinity is not all that critical.

Slowly drifting around is not any concern, IMO.

 

[LPS Bum]

I use a relatively inexpensive Duetto ATO on my 165 gal reef and the 7.5 gal Red Sea reservoir that came with the tank. Works great, except that in the winter I need to fill it up every 4 days (every 6 days in summer).

I use a cheap $50 Amazon ATO and a 5 gal bucket on my 240 gal FOWLR, which has glass tops so it evaporates far less water. I fill that up once a week.

Both are pretty simple set ups and have worked well for years. I don't really see the value in "smart" systems like the Red Sea ATO.

 

[BeanAnimal]

For the longest time, I used a single relay triggered by a set of float switches to correct for evaporation.

By chance built from my latching relay animated gif from back in the day?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I similarly didn’t focus too much on matching my AWC water. But if I wanted salinity to rise in the tank, I’d either make the next batch of new salt water a little stronger, or add a little more of it. Same in reverse for lowering it. Exact salinity is not all that critical.

Slowly drifting around is not any concern, IMO.

Odd discussion in the fact that I built a calculator a few nights ago for similar purpose (raising salinity in the display through evaporation of added water).

Aquarium Salinity Adjustment Calculators | BeanAnimal's Reef

Maybe it will help somebody... maybe not.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

By chance built from my latching relay animated gif from back in the day?

No... not that I remember. The concept was a latching relay design though. One float switch (low switch) triggered the on, while the other (high switch) turned it off in order to prevent constant cycling of the pump.

Of course now a days this is achieved with circuits and software. But one couldn't knock the simplicity of a relay and float switches.

 

[exnisstech]

Not everyone has an apex or even wants one.
But in responce to the original question float switches have been pretty reliable in my experience. This one on a jbj ato (bummed they stopped making them) was in use for over 6 years and never cleaned because the stocking kept all the nasties out.

I just installed it on another tank

 

[Pistondog]

I think the OPs initial question was why spend big bucks for a sensor and a pump.

It didn't help when he introduced his setup. Not to mention using the conductivity probe to determine when and if to top off with saltwater.

I share OPs position in that I never once understood why people spent so much for a sensor and pump.

For the longest time, I used a single relay triggered by a set of float switches to correct for evaporation. The relay controlled 110v outlet that turned on and off a pump. That's essentially the same concept of most stand alone ATOs. However instead of paying upwards of $200, the same thing can be achieved with a few things off of the internet for a substantial fraction of cost.

Op's 1st 2 sentences reference ato systems. Thats what my answer is from.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No... not that I remember. The concept was a latching relay design though. One float switch (low switch) triggered the on, while the other (high switch) turned it off in order to prevent constant cycling of the pump.

Of course now a days this is achieved with circuits and software. But one couldn't knock the simplicity of a relay and float switches.

https://beananimal.com/wp-content/uploads/latchcircuit.gif

Link is animated... But this was it.

 

[gbroadbridge]

So, this might just prove how clueless I am, but I have to ask: Why are people shelling out $200, $300, or more for Auto Top-Off (ATO) systems? A quick search at BRS shows all the popular options: Smart ATO, ATO+, and a bunch of other fancy-sounding names. But at their core, these are just level sensors, a water pump, and maybe a leak sensor. Sometimes, two sensors.

Yet, they still don’t include a salinity sensor, or any "smart" feature to differentiate between topping off with RO or saltwater. You’re still manually ensuring your freshly made saltwater is at 1.026. So, what exactly are we paying for? Is it the marketing? The sleek design? The peace of mind? Snake oil?

Before you roast me, let me explain my setup. I’ve got a continuous automatic water change hooked up to my Apex. My salinity probe decides whether the top-off should use RO or saltwater to maintain levels within hi/lo sensor ranges. It’s been running flawlessly -- 2 years on my current tank and 5 years on my previous build—and it keeps salinity in check (within reason). Sure, I keep an eye on the salinity probe for bubbles and occasional recalibrations, but it’s been reliable and low-maintenance.



Pictures for proof:

And programming is quite simple literally:

So, seriously, what am I missing? Is there some magic feature I’m overlooking? Or is it just my approach that’s a bit “DIY unconventional”? Feel free to call me daft I’m genuinely curious what makes these systems worth the price for so many reefers.

Most folks don't want to DIY a piece of equipment that could have catastrophic consequences if it failed.

Plus of course this is an expensive habby, so $100-150 on an ATO is no big deal.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

https://beananimal.com/wp-content/uploads/latchcircuit.gif

Link is animated... But this was it.

Let me guess, on the bean animal website? Was that around circa 2008? That's exactly my solution, probably still on my build thread over on RC.

 

[subodhs]

I kind of dug myself in a hole with the conductivity and salinity and my setup there. But really, the intent was for me to understand what am I missing by not having one of these expensive ATOs (I have foot in the mouth disease I guess).

 

[BeanAnimal]

Let me guess on the bean animal website? Was that around circa 2008? That's exactly my solution, probably still on my build thread over on RC.

I think the domain dates back to the 1990s. Internet archive does not have a copy until 2004. You are likely in the ballpark with the gif. 2006 maybe.

 

[subodhs]

Odd discussion in the fact that I built a calculator a few nights ago for similar purpose (raising salinity in the display through evaporation of added water).

Aquarium Salinity Adjustment Calculators | BeanAnimal's Reef

Maybe it will help somebody... maybe not.

off topic: I like your calculator. I see you have a lot of calculators! And I notice we both like calculators (mine is in my signature)

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I kind of dug myself in a hole with the conductivity and salinity and my setup there. But really, the intent was for me to understand what am I missing by not having one of these expensive ATOs (I have foot in the mouth disease I guess).

Well some have timers and failsafe built into the software to solve for a stuck float switch or sensor. Some have alarms, but still doesn't justify the $200 price tag.

It's fair to say people don't want to DIY their own. But one could easily make one on the arduino platform and provide step by step instructions, share the code. Even introducing all the bells, whistles and failsafe the project cost will still come in at a fraction of the cost.

I've asked this same question when I got back into the hobby. It seems marketing really took the wheel and made the ATO a product you shouldn't skimp on.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I think the domain dates back to the 1990s. Internet archive does not have a copy until 2004. You are likely in the ballpark with the gif. 2006 maybe.

That would've been helpful back then.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

So, this might just prove how clueless I am, but I have to ask: Why are people shelling out $200, $300, or more for Auto Top-Off (ATO) systems? A quick search at BRS shows all the popular options: Smart ATO, ATO+, and a bunch of other fancy-sounding names. But at their core, these are just level sensors, a water pump, and maybe a leak sensor. Sometimes, two sensors.

Yet, they still don’t include a salinity sensor, or any "smart" feature to differentiate between topping off with RO or saltwater. You’re still manually ensuring your freshly made saltwater is at 1.026. So, what exactly are we paying for? Is it the marketing? The sleek design? The peace of mind? Snake oil?

Before you roast me, let me explain my setup. I’ve got a continuous automatic water change hooked up to my Apex. My salinity probe decides whether the top-off should use RO or saltwater to maintain levels within hi/lo sensor ranges. It’s been running flawlessly -- 2 years on my current tank and 5 years on my previous build—and it keeps salinity in check (within reason). Sure, I keep an eye on the salinity probe for bubbles and occasional recalibrations, but it’s been reliable and low-maintenance.



Pictures for proof:

And programming is quite simple literally:

So, seriously, what am I missing? Is there some magic feature I’m overlooking? Or is it just my approach that’s a bit “DIY unconventional”? Feel free to call me daft I’m genuinely curious what makes these systems worth the price for so many reefers.

The Tunze osmolator is under 200. A used one is under 120 in many cases.