Your tank is too new for _______ organism. Why?

[Hans-Werner]

I have not read the complete thread, just wanted to add my opinion:

Fresh saltwater is "aggressive" due to uncomplexed metals, mainly transition metals. Organics form complexes with these metals and "ripen" the saltwater in this way. Other metal ions precipitate.

Bacteria, cyanobacteria and algae are important contributors to specific organics that form specific chelates with for example copper or iron.

A balance for phosphate adsorption and desorption establishes and stabilizes phosphate concentrations. This is in my eyes one of the main reasons why tanks with calcareous sand are so much easier to establish and run than bare bottom tanks.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Are you sure that corals that "open up" do that because they feel well? Or could it sometimes be caused of something that irritate them?

If something is really irritating corals they will not open up. What are you thinking about, Lasse?

 

[PotatoPig]

Test results on tanks that kill coral and ones that grow coral often come back similar. My only theory is microorganism and macroorganism succession.

This is a major part of my theory.

I don’t mean ammonia reducing bacteria, but all the other microbial life in the tanks, including viruses even (as a taxonomic category, not as diseases), that make up an unseen and untested, but enormous portion of life going on in these systems.

A secondary factor IMO is stability. From my own tank start I saw wild swings in parameters when I turned the lights on as a succession of algae types went boom and bust over a ~10 week period before things stabilized. Another part of this stabilization is in the critters (pods, and other reef bugs) that experience population swings around the same time.

I suspect another secondary factor is these issues are compounded by first timers’ responses. We see folks come in on a regular basis with really very minor algae issues and they’re blasting their tanks with every intervention imaginable, often while working off “questionable-at-best” information and expectations. This is also perhaps the reason for the mantra that the typical timelines can be shortened by experienced reefers - because they mostly have a better knowledge about how to handle start up issues. It’s not like there’s not a lot to know either… even if someone read a dozen books and articles and followed forums for months before starting their own tank I’d still expect a learning curve as theory gets put into practice.

 

[Lasse]

If something is really irritating corals they will not open up. What are you thinking about, Lasse?

I was thinking of situations there some corals expose their polyps - not for eating but in order to get rid of something like surplus oxygen.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was thinking of situations there some corals expose their polyps - not for eating but in order to get rid of something like surplus oxygen.

Sincerely Lasse

In that specific point, lps corals in low flow can inflate quite large. I had a plerogyra sinuous (bubble coral) get huge bubbles when I moved it from my display to a refugium.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

I thought my tank was ready for LPS coral last year, but it turns out it wasn't, and most of them did not survive!

 

[Steve Fast]

Somehow tanks are set up by vendors and various reef shows.... May the shows are too short for it to matter... Nonetheless

 

[Hans-Werner]

Somehow tanks are set up by vendors and various reef shows.... May the shows are too short for it to matter... Nonetheless

I can't speak for all but I think most tanks are set up elsewhere some time before the shows start. Then the water and rocks are taken out of the tanks and moved separately and everything is filled and reassembled at the show. Also corals may be part of the prior setup to get adjusted to the lighting and general conditions. So most or all tanks on shows are not really fresh setups. I think the minumum is a good proportion of "ripened" water for a show setup. "Ripened" water with its organics will clear up much faster than totally fresh saltwater. With its bacteria and organics it readily forms aggregates that take up the cloudiness from the water and prevent new precipitation.

 

[taricha]

@taricha

Lasse, that whole data set is excellent and very interesting to me. Care to share what elements correspond to the color bars in this chart?

And thank you for having tested Rb response to dosing - I had wondered about that.

 

[Dburr1014]

Not directly related to your quest here, but kinda sorta in a way.

The list of your tank is x blanket statements here are endless….. and the parrots are many.

“What’s your par? Oh it’s 350…that coral won’t live unless it gets 351, change your lights”…I have no clue how I’ve been in the hobby since the nineties and never even touched a par meter.

“What’s your nitrate and phosphate? Oh, 20 and 0.08…that’s horrible! Corals need to be at 10 and 0.03 or they’ll all die!”

“What’s your ph? Holy cow that’s low! No wonder you’re having problems. You must have 8.3 or higher, your tank is dying “.

“What’s your last icp test show? Whaaaat? You don’t do icp? No wonder, you’re an idiot…you must do icp testing every other Tuesday and twice as often on leap year or you’ll never be successful!”

“What’s your flow??”

I think you get the picture. When I started we didn’t have all these rules (or commandments as I can them). Yes there were generalizations, but I never heard so many things (especially numbers) spewed off with such authority. I feel for people asking questions quite often. How do they even begin to sift through all the differing “facts of reefing” responses they get?

I totally get what your saying.

But, I believe there's are rules with one parameter to another to follow. i.e. With high light you should have high flow, and with low nutrients you don't want high alkalinity.

As far as Randy's question, this is my opinion, I think aged water might have something to do with it. It may just be the bacteria in the water or something changes as it ages. LOL, probably just in my head.

So many times I read "just did large WC and tank is dying". Our new tank and sps not doing well.

I transferred all coral from my 75 to my 150 and used as much water and rock I could. It didn't really skip a beat. Not my 1st rodeo either.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Somehow tanks are set up by vendors and various reef shows.... May the shows are too short for it to matter... Nonetheless

I agree that shows are short and not a great comparison here. I have heard several vendors talk about losing coral on day 3 or 4 of the trip. You can unplug the main return pump on a reef tank for a couple days and everything is fine. But when it starts to go south, it happens quickly. I look at show tanks as temporary holding. Like putting the contents of a reef tank into a temporary trough for a couple days. 48 hours is almost never an issue. But after that, things get dicey.

 

[Lasse]

I´m sorry - here is the right version

Note: Low and High is recommended from OCEAMO - I not always follow it

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I´m sorry - here is the right version

Note: Low and High is recommended from OCEAMO - I not always follow it

Sincerely Lasse

Very interesting, thank you.

 

[Luminous74]

I was thinking of situations there some corals expose their polyps - not for eating but in order to get rid of something like surplus oxygen.

Sincerely Lasse

I wonder why corals release excess oxygen after a water change. (I use ozone, and the water doesn’t really look much clearer after the change.) I don’t have a clear answer to this. It’s more of a subjective feeling—I interpret it as a sign that the corals feel more comfortable.
---_---------------------------------------_----------------_-_----_----------------------------

Another question I’ve been thinking about, based on different articles, is whether the nitrogen cycle is partially a myth in this context. From what I’ve learned, corals prefer nitrogen in the form of ammonium. So, I assume that in a tank densely stocked with corals, no matter how old it is, a traditional nitrogen cycle wouldn’t develop because the corals absorb ammonium directly. In an ideal scenario, the amount of ammonium entering the tank would perfectly match the corals’ needs, so no nitrate would form.

I want to say upfront that I’m not an expert, just a hobbyist who loves this hobby. With chemistry, we control a lot of the biology, but the problem is, we don’t fully understand the biology—especially when it comes to microbiomes, whether in the corals themselves or in the whole tank. We don’t really know which bacteria, viruses, or other microorganisms establish themselves over time. All we can do is try to increase the chances that they’re the “right” ones.

I imagine that healthy, larger corals in a well-stocked tank can influence their surroundings in a way that improves the chances of developing a healthy and desired microbiome.

So, isn’t it just that in older, well-maintained, and stable tanks with a high coral density, a stable or more stable microbiome develops over time, which benefits more sensitive animals?

 

[foshizzle]

.

 

[Luminous74]

A phosphate adsorption and desorption scale establishes and stabilizes phosphate concentrations. In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons why tanks with calcareous sand are so much easier to establish and operate than tanks with bare bottoms.

I'm not sure if I understand this statement correctly. Would this support my experience that replacing sand in my system works like a GMO? The phosphate levels drop when I replace the sand. It works so well that I sometimes have to be careful not to hit a phosphate limitation and only replace part of the sand.

 

[Luminous74]

That would imply, for example, that a frag tank should be quite risky.

I wonder what the difference is between a frag tank and a regular new reef tank. Is it because these are usually smaller in the hobby, with less equipment, and get fully stocked relatively quickly? The ratio of coral mass to water and rock surface is shifted in favor of the coral mass.
This brings me to the question of whether the mass of live rock can be replaced by coral mass?
How quickly does newly added seawater become biologically active (I’m missing the right term to phrase this differently) so it’s suitable for housing corals?
The problem is that many tanks like mine, without live rock, quickly stocked with a high amount of coral mass, and without used seawater, would confirm these questions. But there are probably just as many tanks that would contradict this statement. But that’s the case with all types of tanks.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I'm not sure if I understand this statement correctly. Would this support my experience that replacing sand in my system works like a GMO? The phosphate levels drop when I replace the sand. It works so well that I sometimes have to be careful not to hit a phosphate limitation and only replace part of the sand.

Yes, calcareous materials take up surplus phosphate from the water or, if they are loaded with phosphate release phosphate into a water that is relatively deficient in phosphate. Water and calcareous materials are in a phosphate balance. In this way calcareous materials form a kind of "phosphate buffer" (a nutrient buffer different from the pH-buffer chemists call a phosphate buffer).

 

[Lasse]

I wonder why corals release excess oxygen after a water change. (I use ozone, and the water doesn’t really look much clearer after the change.) I don’t have a clear answer to this. It’s more of a subjective feeling—I interpret it as a sign that the corals feel more comfortable.
---_---------------------------------------_----------------_-_----_----------------------------

Another question I’ve been thinking about, based on different articles, is whether the nitrogen cycle is partially a myth in this context. From what I’ve learned, corals prefer nitrogen in the form of ammonium. So, I assume that in a tank densely stocked with corals, no matter how old it is, a traditional nitrogen cycle wouldn’t develop because the corals absorb ammonium directly. In an ideal scenario, the amount of ammonium entering the tank would perfectly match the corals’ needs, so no nitrate would form.

I want to say upfront that I’m not an expert, just a hobbyist who loves this hobby. With chemistry, we control a lot of the biology, but the problem is, we don’t fully understand the biology—especially when it comes to microbiomes, whether in the corals themselves or in the whole tank. We don’t really know which bacteria, viruses, or other microorganisms establish themselves over time. All we can do is try to increase the chances that they’re the “right” ones.

I imagine that healthy, larger corals in a well-stocked tank can influence their surroundings in a way that improves the chances of developing a healthy and desired microbiome.

So, isn’t it just that in older, well-maintained, and stable tanks with a high coral density, a stable or more stable microbiome develops over time, which benefits more sensitive animals?

Depends on. A highly stocked tank (like mine) with a decent age (like mine) produce rather much internal NH4/NH3 by the breakdown process of accumulated organic matter. If I stop managing my nitrate reducing biological processes (read - my denitrification) then my NO3 concentration will rise by about 3-5 mg/L per day. This corresponds to an NH3/NH4 supplement of around 0.88 - 1.45 mg/L NH3/NH4 on daily basis above what is needed for my corals.

My aquarium

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Luminous74]

Depends on. A highly stocked tank (like mine) with a decent age (like mine) produce rather much internal NH4/NH3 by the breakdown process of accumulated organic matter. If I stop managing my nitrate reducing biological processes (read - my denitrification) then my NO3 concentration will rise by about 3-5 mg/L per day. This corresponds to an NH3/NH4 supplement of around 0.88 - 1.45 mg/L NH3/NH4 on daily basis above what is needed for my corals.

I misspoke. What I actually meant to say is that in an ideal world, only as much nitrogen would enter the system as the corals can consume, without any NO₃ accumulating. So, I wonder, in an ideal world, would a nitrogen cycle not be needed for corals to thrive? However, since this ideal world only exists in dreams, we are likely obligated to address limitations like excesses, and when there are excesses, the nitrogen cycle will inevitably form. My tank is currently 2.5 years old. My NO₃ is at <1 mg/l, and I can only keep PO₄ above 0.05 mg/l by adding PO₄. I also need to manage the whole system. With classic methods like skimming and so on. However, what has the biggest effect on nutrient reduction in my tank is the regular partial change of the substrate, which, in a tank of this size, isn’t really that difficult.