How are people QT'ing challenging corals/inverts in QT tanks

[Zinda]

I'm working through my quarantine plan for my 110 gallon mixed fish/reef tank. The idea is try to avoid ich/velvet/other diseases via quarantine.

For fish, I'm thinking I'll simply try paying someone else to do the work like https://www.marinecollectors.com/.

I'm struggling with corals/inverts. Everything I've read says that at least ich and velvet (and I assume many other things) cannot be solved by dips or rinses. You simply have to quarantine for a long period. Some say 72 days, others say others, but regardless, a really long time. The recommendation I read over and over is to set up a temporary, bare bones, QT to use for this purpose. Usually without even cycling, just frequent water changes.

What I don't understand is how people are successfully quarantining things like clams or acropora when everything I've read (and experienced) about them says "requires a well-established tank with established biome, very stable parameters, etc". To me this says "tank that's been running for a long time (many months), has cycled, has places for copepods, etc".

This doesn't seem to add up, but people seem to be doing it ... So, how are people successfully QTing more challenging corals and inverts for a month or 2 without them just dying every time?

 

[exnisstech]

I don't QT inverts but I suppose if you kept them in qt with no fish for a period the same length as a fallow period it would work. Not sure of any other methods but let's see what others say.

 

[exnisstech]

QTing more challenging corals and inverts for a month or 2 without them just dying every time?

You would need a cycled tank and for coral light and flow. Inverts food.

 

[Zinda]

You would need a cycled tank and for coral light and flow. Inverts food.

Do you quarantine them yourself?

 

[exnisstech]

Do you quarantine them yourself?

I do not but but am familiar with the process from reading and such when I was considering it. I'm not a fan of trying to run a sterile tank. Nothing wrong with being safe it's just not my method.

 

[Zinda]

I'm starting to wonder if anybody really does a real QT process for challenging inverts

 

[Stomatopods17]

Its not really necessary tbh, never done it once.

The only entities you'd want to be cautious about are snails and hermit crabs as pathogens such as velvet/ich will occasionally end up in the shells, but majority of inverts won't harbor that pathogen at all, they can't be 'infected' by it, molts make attaching to them difficult, and in general those parasites don't grow or lay eggs on them they need a fish host.

If you're that worried you just don't want to reintroduce the water they came in back to the tank, anything actually on them will get washed off, particularly starfish, very large crabs (horseshoes), clams, etc. Inverts don't do well being moved so many times.

Clams you want to keep an eye on for different reasons, you're looking for clam specific parasites like snails on them, bad algae, etc.

 

[Zinda]

@Stomatopods17, does that mean you disagree with the writeups here? Or are you just saying its very low risk and not worrying about?
- https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine-coral-and-inverts.288859
- https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/coral-invert-quarantine-time-frames.334584/

I read those articles and all responses to them. I found a few people posted my exact issue which I'd summarize as:

"If I wasn't able to keep SPS corals/clams/other challenging corals alive in my 14 gallon all-in-one when I was completely focused on it, why do I think I'd be able to keep them alive now that I call it a 'QT Tank'?"

For example:

@VJV said:
The thing is, in spite of all my care acros do not do well in my invert QT. I guess this is mainly due to the fact that this is a small 8 gallon nano so maybe even during the day the PH and temp swings are too much for them, I do not know. What I do know is that all of them enter like beautifull specimens and after the one month mark they brown out. Some recover after a couple of months in the main display but most just end up dying...

@pfoxgrover said:
I have been very good about QT of fish but after many failures of QT with sensitive SPS corals, I gave up with coral QT and do a two stage dip of Coral RX and Bayer. In order to keep some sensitive SPS frags happy for 45 or 76 days I would say that I would need a QT tank capable of replicating the lighting, flow, and stability of my reef tank. My attempts of doing that in the past have fallen short.

@Gablami said:
As you’ve described, it’s very difficult to QT acros 76 days without impacting the health of the frag. Most people will end up with a bunch of skeletons half way through.

The one person who actually made a point about how QTing challenging animals might work (and in fact be easier!) was:

@Brew12 said:
Keeping SPS alive in a QT tank is much easier than in a DT. The biodiversity is needed to create a stable environment for the SPS in a DT. In a QT, everything should be stable because of its simplicity.

(and @Humblefish agreed)

I have to be honest, I'm not sure I get the point. Is it simpler because there are less animals? Less equipment? So a tank where I literally put fresh salt water in, cycle it, and have a very simple light, a pump and a heater will actually be *easier* to grow an SPS in than my established tank? @Brew12 or @Humblefish, I'd love clarification on what you meant there.

The only compromise position I found (for Acros only) was:

@Gablami said
So the compromise is, cut off the plug and the glue, cut off any exposed skeleton (like cut ends) or bury with glue, and place in your DT. If you want to be safer, QT for 2 weeks in the best possible QT you can run (keep it running, don’t just set it up for frags as needed). After 2 weeks most cysts have released. The 76 day recommendation takes into account all the stragglers and the tail end of the curve. Follow these recommendations at your own risk! I’m not saying you won’t get ich. This is just risk management

 

[Spare time]

You just treat it like a normal tank. Proper lighting, flow, food, etc. Its not as hard as it sounds. I don't buy the biodiversity argument.

 

[Zinda]

You just treat it like a normal tank. Proper lighting, flow, food, etc. Its not as hard as it sounds. I don't buy the biodiversity argument.

Does that mean you do quarantine the kind of challenging livestock I'm wondering about?

 

[Spare time]

Does that mean you do quarantine the kind of challenging livestock I'm wondering about?

I have qt'd a mix of corals and some sponges, clean up crew inverts, and a few fish. No clams though, but I'd imagine they are fine as long as they get fed enough. I am not the best to ask about clams though since I have only ever sold them but not kept or qt'd them myself (I worked two lfs).


What I would do is get the coral, dip it, put it on a new frag plug (unless it can stand on its own), place it on a frag rack, and then treat the tank like its any other tank). I usually do an extra dip on the way out. I would not put any rocks or sand in the QT unless its for non corals. Start with a cheaper acro to see how it works out for you.

 

[Zinda]

I have qt'd a mix of corals and some sponges.

Are you doing it for the 76 days that those links recommend? Or something shorter?

Also, is your QT tank "well established" or do you tear it down and put it together as needed?

 

[Spare time]

Are you doing it for the 76 days that those links recommend? Or something shorter?

Also, is your QT tank "well established" or do you tear it down and put it together as needed?

I edited my comment to add more.

I just did 45 days. The coral QT isn't up anymore and was only done for a few corals since I started doing that at the end of my tank's capacity but rn I just have a clean up crew QT going at all times.

 

[Zinda]

I edited my comment to add more.

I just did 45 days. The coral QT isn't up anymore and was only done for a few corals since I started doing that at the end of my tank's capacity but rn I just have a clean up crew QT going at all times.

Thanks!

Given that you used to work at LFS', I'll take a wild guess that you are an advanced reefer ... So when you say "just treat it like a normal tank", you've got to realize I've never had a "normal tank" that has been able to successfully host an Acro, and I've had challenges with clams as well. That was in a 14 gal biocube. Again, I'm guessing that you could put together a successful Acro hosting tank in your sleep at this point.

My new tank is 110 gal, and I've tried to design it with the right flow, lighting, filtration, etc to be able to successfully host these more advanced animals. But: given that my old tank never could, and that tank is now my QT tank, you see my dilemma. Why, all of a sudden, is it going to start working for me now?

Maybe it just needs an equipment upgrade (more lights? more powerheads?) or maybe making it bare bones will somehow make it "simpler" and just work now (as @Humblefish and @Brew12 might be saying above), but it seems really doubtful.

 

[Spare time]

Thanks!

Given that you used to work at LFS', I'll take a wild guess that you are an advanced reefer ... So when you say "just treat it like a normal tank", you've got to realize I've never had a "normal tank" that has been able to successfully host an Acro, and I've had challenges with clams as well. That was in a 14 gal biocube. Again, I'm guessing that you could put together a successful Acro hosting tank in your sleep at this point.

My new tank is 110 gal, and I've tried to design it with the right flow, lighting, filtration, etc to be able to successfully host these more advanced animals. But: given that my old tank never could, and that tank is now my QT tank, you see my dilemma. Why, all of a sudden, is it going to start working for me now?

Maybe it just needs an equipment upgrade (more lights? more powerheads?) or maybe making it bare bones will somehow make it "simpler" and just work now (as @Humblefish and @Brew12 might be saying above), but it seems really doubtful.

What light is on the biocube? What kind of flow does it have?

 

[Stomatopods17]

@Stomatopods17, does that mean you disagree with the writeups here? Or are you just saying its very low risk and not worrying about?
- https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine-coral-and-inverts.288859
- https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/coral-invert-quarantine-time-frames.334584/

I read those articles and all responses to them. I found a few people posted my exact issue which I'd summarize as:

"If I wasn't able to keep SPS corals/clams/other challenging corals alive in my 14 gallon all-in-one when I was completely focused on it, why do I think I'd be able to keep them alive now that I call it a 'QT Tank'?"

For example:







The one person who actually made a point about how QTing challenging animals might work (and in fact be easier!) was:



(and @Humblefish agreed)

I have to be honest, I'm not sure I get the point. Is it simpler because there are less animals? Less equipment? So a tank where I literally put fresh salt water in, cycle it, and have a very simple light, a pump and a heater will actually be *easier* to grow an SPS in than my established tank? @Brew12 or @Humblefish, I'd love clarification on what you meant there.

The only compromise position I found (for Acros only) was:

I don't disagree but I find the cons outweigh the pros.

Before I explain why i don't do the quarantine, i'll give you the answer to what you're asking if you choose to quarantine; they're not gunna die if you choose to keep them without lights for a few days/weeks, they're naturally used to stormy weeks. We do 3 day black outs (in my case I did a 2 week blackout) without losing coral, if anything they were happier the algae was gone. You don't have to have a '2nd reef tank' for these measures, you could genuinely put together a cheap setup with freshwater equipment for a few weeks, if you do nothing but watch water quality, you're already better than most petcos at coral growing they're actually pretty forgiving about bad lighting for short burst of time just growth will stunt, color will fade, and if for too long then you might notice them getting unhealthy and sick from it. You actually risk algae growth on them which is more harmful if you use lighting on a probably unestablished/uninhabited quarantine. The only thing to keep in mind is to not 'shock' them with light when you do put them in your system, acclimate them to the lighting, start lower and turn up, the other corals won't mind that either but the new stuff will be happier. QTing 'sensitive' inverts is easy as long as you can feed them and care for them normally, but pretty much all of them are tougher for this than most would give them credit for. If they died within 2 weeks in a setup like that, its due to something else or water parameters, usually bad flow/lighting doesn't kill them directly they indirectly cause other problems that over time will.

Clams and corals you're mostly concerning parasites related to the clam/coral themselves, as you don't want to spread parasitic snails making clams a non-option in your tank or have a flatworm/any bad hitchhiker get out of control even post dip. Clams idk much about dipping but I'd assume its probably a big no.

Ich/Velvet doesn't live on these animals at all, they have two free swimming stages; one where they're looking for a fish host, and one where they leave the host and free float to where ever (usually substrate) until they hatch and repeat the cycle, they don't anchor to inverts and inverts don't host them. Corals any marine velvet/ich will wash off after dips, acclimation, etc, your only worry is if you introduce their water into the tank and happen to put any of the free floating stages in (hence why its easy to cause an outbreak taking someone else's rock with a lot of holes), so a full 'water change' of your acclimate is a necessity if you wish to avoid that, but QTing them its less for those parasites as the risk is very small, and more looking out for the other stuff.

Other Inverts ingeneral, such as shrimp, I find very unnecessary to QT cause its even harder for anything to stick to them and the full water change acclimation would suffice, it sounds worse for the shrimp to move multiple times with how sensitive inverts are to large swings. Some may still QT them but I've never experienced issues just putting inverts straight in, corals/live rock i've had several issues and non of them were ich and velvet.

 

[Zinda]

You don't have to have a '2nd reef tank' for these measures, you could genuinely put together a cheap setup with freshwater equipment for a few weeks, if you do nothing but watch water quality, you're already better than most petcos at coral growing they're actually pretty forgiving about bad lighting for short burst of time just growth will stunt, color will fade, and if for too long then you might notice them getting unhealthy and sick from it.

Hmmm. In my established biocube 14 where I have successfully kept various mushrooms, zoas, sexy shrimp, clownfish and 2 anemones since 2011, I have recently failed to keep alive alive for anywhere near 76 days: Squamosa Clam x 2, Cyphastrea, Turbinaria. Maybe I've got "old tank syndrome" or maybe some nasties of some sort that only attack "more advanced livestock".

Well, you are now the third person I've read (see note about @Brew12 and @Humblefish above) claim that it is easy to keep SPS for 76 days in a cheap new tank. Maybe I need to do a complete teardown and start from scratch on a freshly cycled tank and see if it is actually easier. I have to say it goes against all knowledge I've gained after reefing for 28 years. But: I've never tried just keeping things alive for 2 months, maybe short periods are actually easier in a simple, empty, new tank.

ch/Velvet doesn't live on these animals at all, they have two free swimming stages; one where they're looking for a fish host, and one where they leave the host and free float to where ever (usually substrate) until they hatch and repeat the cycle, they don't anchor to inverts and inverts don't host them. Corals any marine velvet/ich will wash off after dips, acclimation, etc

What about Tomonts attached to hard surfaces (including clams, shrimp, stony corals, etc)? This article claims Tomonts do anchor to those and you'll just bring them in as eggs if you don't wait for them to hatch:

Tomonts: This is the “egg” stage, which encysts upon hard surfaces. It cannot be washed away like free swimmers, and scrubbing tomonts off is likely to be very hit or miss. In addition, it is unlikely that coral dips have any impact on tomonts, since not even copper can eradicate them (copper only kills free swimmers). So, the only way of dealing with this threat is to wait out any tomonts by isolating newly purchased corals/inverts to a fishless environment.

 

[Zinda]

What light is on the biocube? What kind of flow does it have?

I've got a 14 gallon biocube that is well established (started in 2011). Has: a single powerhead (in addition to return pump), 1 inch sand bed, CO2 scrubber, LED lights that measure ~ 50 par average over the tank (right/top number is at the surface, bottom is near the sand, measured at 9 points around the tank), very strong blue spectrum:

I do 15% water changes, let's say once every 2 weeks.

Decently stable parameters at: Temp=78, Sal=1.026, Nit=3.8, Pho=.08, Alk=7.8, Ca=494, Mg=1230, PH=8.1(day)-7.6(night)

As I mentioned above: I have successfully kept various mushrooms, zoas, sexy shrimp, clownfish and 2 anemones since 2011, I have recently failed to keep alive alive for anywhere near 76 days: Squamosa Clam x 2, Cyphastrea, Turbinaria.

 

[Spare time]

I've got a 14 gallon biocube that is well established (started in 2011). Has: a single powerhead (in addition to return pump), 1 inch sand bed, CO2 scrubber, LED lights that measure ~ 50 par average over the tank (right/top number is at the surface, bottom is near the sand, measured at 9 points around the tank), very strong blue spectrum:

I do 15% water changes, let's say once every 2 weeks.

Decently stable parameters at: Temp=78, Sal=1.026, Nit=3.8, Pho=.08, Alk=7.8, Ca=494, Mg=1230, PH=8.1(day)-7.6(night)

As I mentioned above: I have successfully kept various mushrooms, zoas, sexy shrimp, clownfish and 2 anemones since 2011, I have recently failed to keep alive alive for anywhere near 76 days: Squamosa Clam x 2, Cyphastrea, Turbinaria.

What visibly happens to the coral as they die? Also, are they being fed? My main concern with the setup is that the light in there is basically a laser beam.

 

[Dragen Fiend]

I don't have a QT tank nor will I probably ever have one for fish. Now for corals. I do have a 5 gallon tank that will be used for corals that need immediate attention or for overflow frags. Otherwise I dip my corals and go.

Personally I don't see the need and extra hassle. I don't have any issues with clown, gamma, firefish and inverts. My urchin would probably be the hardest thing I've dealt with. I guess if I was spending a lot more on fish I'd be more cautious. I buy from reputable sellers. Especially ones that QT already before shipping out. Unless you are buying from a questionable source I'm not sure you need to worry.

Now the only two things I haven't added into any of my tanks is SPS, anemones and clams. But I'll be getting all 3 next week.