★I am ALIVE★ (PLEASE READ) ★Tank almost ★Electrocuted★ me★ ( GFCI never Tripped ...MISSING GROUND PROBE) Passing on Lesson to All Reefers

[mike550]

It sounds like you have pre 2014 GFCI's in your house. Newer GFCI's shouldn't have an issue with inductive loads any longer. They have been greatly improved.

@Brew12 thanks for your reply and I know we’ve replaced some of our GFCIs but perhaps not the ones in question.

But question is still out there , is there another way to measure or detect stray voltage?

I’m guessing that unless I have an Apex or something $$$ if the GFCI trips while I’m at work or something I won’t know about it until perhaps it’s too late for the tank. It would be great if there was a device that could send a warning or something if a voltage was present.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 thanks for your reply and I know we’ve replaced some of our GFCIs but perhaps not the ones in question.

But question is still out there , is there another way to measure or detect stray voltage?

I’m guessing that unless I have an Apex or something $$$ if the GFCI trips while I’m at work or something I won’t know about it until perhaps it’s too late for the tank. It would be great if there was a device that could send a warning or something if a voltage was present.

With an Apex, you can set an alarm to send out an email if you lose power to the EB8. This is also why I would never run my return pump and powerheads off a common GFCI.

Unfortunately I am not aware of an easy way to measure fault voltages and differentiate them from normal induced voltages in an automated manner.

 

[alton]

I found a chart from Jade Learning that showed different levels of amperage and how it can affect people with 1 second of contact:
1 ma (.001 amps) – Perception level and slight tingle
5 ma (.005 amps) – Shock Felt but you should be able to let go
6-30 ma (.005-.03 amps) – Pain Full Shock
50-150 ma (.05-.150 amps) – Death is Possible
1000 ma (1 amp) – Death is likely
Ma = Milli-Amps
The average GFCI Receptacle is set to trip from 4 to 6 ma so it should trip at 4 but will definitely trip at 6 (remember what was said about 5 ma)
I have always been told and believed that you don’t need a ground for a GFCI to work properly because they trip when there is an imbalance between the ungrounded and grounded circuit (hot and neutral). But with our aquariums it does not work that way because glass is a good insulator therefore there is no path for the imbalance to travel. So the leaking current and voltage just sits in our tanks until till we put our hands in it providing a grounding path.
And I wish the rule "if the pump is grounded you are covered" but I have been told by other reefers that they used a grounded pump and the gfci still did not trip when the pump started leaking volt/amps into the tank..
The most important part of installing a grounding probe is to check at your duplex receptacle for a good ground. If you are not sure how to do this call an electrical contractor, or ask a buddy who is an electrician. You can also buy plug testers from Home Depot or Lowes that will tell you if you have a proper ground. For a little more money you can buy the same tester with a GFCI test option. http://www.idealindustries.com/products/test_measurement/electrical_testers/receptable_testers.jsp
I have seen several times where two wire receptacles where replaced with grounded and where not marked.
A friend that I had known for most of my life was fixing a waterline that was buried with a 120v power line. When he crawled into the mud the shock held him until his heart stopped. A second individual was working in his attic very sweated when he rolled over onto a nicked wire and was not able to roll off. He died in his attic that day. The best GFCI in the world self-test or not can malfunction. Get a grounding probe.
And yes I was the dumb idiot once who plugged a bad power head into a GFCI and stuck my hand into the bucket with bare feet on a tile floor. It hurt like hell and never tripped the GFCi, dropping a grounding probe in and it tripped immediately.

 

[WallyB]

Do we have a GFCI? I think we do? Need you to show me where it is. It would be HIGHLY unfortunate if something like this happened during the week when you'r 500 miles away working.. ;Shifty;Hurting;Mask

The GFCI outlet will AT LEAST have two buttons somewhere.
One for TEST and one for RESET.

Like this one.


Hope your tank is plugged into one of these. If not get one for your tank power.

 

[WallyB]

I think it is fantastic that you are filming this. It's something I've meant to do for a long time and haven't gotten around to it. I'll make a point of watching it tonight!


That is not correct, the Apex will not disconnect the ground, only the hot and neutral. Since the ground remains connected it will still act like a ground probe.

@Brew12 …..I've been thinking. About GFCI thru apex EB power outlets.

I have an Apex Jr with 4 outlets. 2 are Relays and 2 are Transistor. That JR is connected to 3 other Eb8's (similar to Jr outlets, and similar to an Eb32).

Yes the ground is passthru for all Apex controlled outlet….

But does going thru a transistor introduce any problem for GFCI? (Hot/Neurtral Wire... current differential)...Some kind of ISOLATION while active ON.

This last Friday when I got zapped. The pump that was faulty was on the Apex Jr Transistor controlled plug. (sure there was no Ground probe too).
The Apex bars also measure current somehow so the current passed thru the transistor/monitor too.

I know a pure simple power bar works with GFCI.

It is faultless going thru a Smart Controlled Power bar (and transistors)? Like the Apex Jr, EB8 and eb32.

I actually don't know. It might still work. Should still work.

Maybe another test video will answer that. Would be good to know 100%.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 …..I've been thinking. About GFCI thru apex EB power outlets.

I have an Apex Jr with 4 outlets. 2 are Relays and 2 are Transistor. That JR is connected to 3 other Eb8's (similar to Jr outlets, and similar to an Eb32).

Yes the ground is passthru for all Apex controlled outlet….

But does going thru a transistor introduce any problem for GFCI? (Hot/Neurtral Wire... current differential)...Some kind of ISOLATION while active ON.

This last Friday when I got zapped. The pump that was faulty was on the Apex Jr Transistor controlled plug. (sure there was no Ground probe too).
The Apex bars also measure current somehow so the current passed thru the transistor/monitor too.

I know a pure simple power bar works with GFCI.

It is faultless going thru a Smart Controlled Power bar (and transistors)? Like the Apex Jr, EB8 and eb32.

I actually don't know. It might still work. Should still work.

Maybe another test video will answer that. Would be good to know 100%.

You are correct, it should still work.

GFCI's are supposed to trip in the 4ma to 6ma range but I've tested enough to know that some don't trip until almost 20ma. You will definitely feel that before it trips. I suspect your GFCI trips at too high a current, and you provided too much resistance for it to trip. Once the low resistance ground probe was added, current easily surpassed the trip setpoint and the GFCI triggered.

 

[WallyB]

You are correct, it should still work.

GFCI's are supposed to trip in the 4ma to 6ma range but I've tested enough to know that some don't trip until almost 20ma. You will definitely feel that before it trips. I suspect your GFCI trips at too high a current, and you provided too much resistance for it to trip. Once the low resistance ground probe was added, current easily surpassed the trip setpoint and the GFCI triggered.

Ahhh.

So are you saying that going thru a Transistor to control ON/OFF power like an Apex Eb outlet (adds resistance). Thus the tingling I felt. (My body also has resistance, so in series more resistance).

The ground probe eliminates my Body resistance, and enough current is there to trip the GFCI.

No Transistor (pure connect to outlet), would eliminate the extra resistance and GFCI would trip faster/earlier (with just my finger tip). Something like that.

If true, it explains things.

No way, I'm going to do a test video sticking my finger into bucket to test pain levels (before GFCI TRIP).

 

[JumboShrimp]

So I am using this GFCI box for pumps and a heater. When I drop my grounding probe into the tank, must the grounding probe ALSO be plugged into this GFCI box, or can I plug the probe into a standard home wall outlet?? Thanks.

 

[VashonBigs]

I’m putting in a GFCI next week due to this post. Thanks!

 

[Brian_68]

Having a ground probe and GFCI will increase the chances it will trip while you may not be home cutting off power to the tank. With a GFCI only it may trip more often when you stick your arm in the tank so you are at least home to fix the issue once the tingling in your arm wears off......

 

[WallyB]

So I am using this GFCI box for pumps and a heater. When I drop my grounding probe into the tank, must the grounding probe ALSO be plugged into this GFCI box, or can I plug the probe into a standard home wall outlet?? Thanks.

You can plug in the Ground Probe into the GFCI box since you have a handy spare plug in there. That is best!

Grounds are shared between all plugs that are 3 pronged. (If good quality, UL Certified)
Theoretically, every 3 Prong outlet in your house has the same Ground (if house is wired properly, but don't assume each outlet has a proper ground...Since other DIY electricians, may have done improper Electrical work)

If you want to use that spare GFCI plug for something else then plug the Ground Probe into the same outlet or power bar that you plug the GFCI box into.

Just make sure that if you have other stuff that uses AC that is near your tank that it also is plugged into the GFCI box (directly/or off it). You can add a power bar plugged into the GFCI box if you need extra plugs.

Everything near or in your tank running AC power should be GFCI protected. (Even a spill on an AC/DC adapter ( for example your LOW Voltage DC LED light adapter) , can spill/splash salt water onto the HIgh Voltage AC terminals, even if not on floor).

It's varies between how your setup your wiring and stuff, and about how much extra safe you want your setup.

 

[WallyB]

Having a ground probe and GFCI will increase the chances it will trip while you may not be home cutting off power to the tank. With a GFCI only it may trip more often when you stick your arm in the tank so you are at least home to fix the issue once the tingling in your arm wears off......

I rather skip the tingle, zap, Jolt and put in some monitoring to catch the power off.
The ZAP's just freak me out!!!
Even though as a teen I built 1 million Volt Telsla coils to make LIGHTNING.
I never put my finger into the arc (on purpose)

It's good practice to have some kind of secondary monitoring in place and splitting things up (if possible) between separate AC feeds and GFCI anyway.

 

[WallyB]

Plus I wouldn't want my tank sitter getting the ZAP. They wouldn't know how to deal with the situation, and probably would never tank sit again

 

[AnxiousReefer]

I thought I would freshly post this in the New Reef Tank Beginners Section.

I'm about to fix things after experiencing dangerous situation with my Tank Setup. (but wanted to share this while it's fresh in my head)

I'm an Electrical/Electronic Computer System Engineer and I know a bit about Electrician Stuff too (but little about how GFCI outlets work)

I had some luck today as I prepared to put both my arms into my Tank to clean up and add corals.

During Prep I spilled some water as I was preparing and my rubber Crocks got a bit wet, so it connected my feet electrically to my Basement Floor (which is a raised subfloor, but enough water spilled to also drip onto the Concrete Floor (GROUND).

I was scooping some more water using a jug when I felt a tingle at my finger tips.
Then I touch the tip of my finger to tank water and felt a much stronger electrical pulse.

So I got my AC volt meter and with one end on Ground (Concrete Floor), I touched THE (+) lead of my volt meter to water and I got 96 Volts reading.

THE TANK was High Voltage and Dangerous!!! Could kill !!!

I got insulated goves. Put on my best insulated shoes, and had son at the Main House breaker while I tested things.

With the Voltmeter on tank, I started one by one pulling plugs (I have many)….
Almost no plugs left in outlets, and after moving things around, ( the VOLTGE rose to 110Volts).

Finally two plugs left, I removed the Next one and VOLTAGE went away. I found the Fault.
It was my sea swirl water oscillator. It was wet and dripping from inside. Inside I know is a small AC motor and there are O-Ring in connectors, so they wore out. Probably a drip inside.

That was puzzling since I have a GFCI outlet and a ground probe. So I looked from my Ground Probe which was in Sump.
But it was missing. It fell out and was behind sump. Possibly jarred loose during maintenance.
I put back the Ground Probe, and plugged in the Faulty Sea Swirl (RIGHT AWAY the GFCI protection SHUT EVERYTHING OFF).

I've learned a similar Lesson before, so my tanks have always been protected by GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Intertupt OUTLETS).
What I learned a few years ago, is GFCI doesn't always work, if there is no Ground Probe to Ground the Tank water.

Over the years, pumps, heaters have cracked and caused High Voltage in my systems, and most of the time GFCI would trip and turn off AC power (with GFCI and Ground Probe).

What I ALSO learned a few years ago is an Urchin chewed thru a wire insulation and stripped the AC Wire to copper. That electrified my tank but since the Heater Like most heater don't have a ground pin plug (ie 3 Prong), the tank was 110Volts. I had no ground probe, and GFCI didn't trip since HEater had no ground to trigger GFCI.

GFCI outlet don't work if TANK isn't grounded, and HOT wire voltage electrifies the Tank.
If your (hands to feet) become the ground CONNECTOR, it may trip the GFCI. BUT will it work, will if be fast enough, that is something I don't plan on testing.

So I'm about to BOLT/Tie-Wrap that ground PROBE back into my setup. All my ground probes since I have one is each sump and one in each tank (except one, which I will also now add).

Hope you all have a Safe Reefing Experience for many years.


If you have "NO GROUND PROBE" on your setup you run a risk of a ZAP or electrocution.

I you have "NO GFCI on your SETUP" You may DIE SOME DAY (or maybe someone you care about)


----------------- NOV 26 ---- UPDATE --- 3 DAYS LATER -----------------

Did a video Testing how GFCI vs GFCI with Ground Probes (Works and Does Not work)

** When a Heater Fails, AC Pump Fails, or Urchin Chews up your AC Power Cord **

** THIS IS ALSO not just your Tank/SUMP...Applies to where you mix up water, and heat it and can have spills **



More discussion below about GFCI, and Probes.

Thanks for the very helpful imformatipn wally glad your ok!

 

[WallyB]

So I am using this GFCI box for pumps and a heater. When I drop my grounding probe into the tank, must the grounding probe ALSO be plugged into this GFCI box, or can I plug the probe into a standard home wall outlet?? Thanks.

One more comment.

It looks like the Actual GFCI Smarts are located in the LUMPY PLUG (I've see those before).
It probably has a test, and reset button (on the BLACK PLUG)

The switch on the Yellow box is just on/off.

But my point in YOUR photo below (that I modified)…..

EVERYTHING IN THE GREEN ZONE IS GFCI protected.

That Plug in on the RED side is NOT (so located the BLACK GFCI PLUG somewhere where water won't spill/splash onto it's unprotected side, ie high up on wall, not on a extension cord laying on floor, or anywhere near your tank, sump, or cabinet)

 

[JumboShrimp]

Very, very helpful— I will make the necessary adjustments. Many thanks!!

 

[WallyB]

Quick update, probably last.

So I ditched my other Hydor Koralia AC pump before it fails too, and replaced it with a Jebao DC pump (Big Yellow Arrow). On Sale Black Friday.

No more AC power in DT, so I removed the DT ground probe, leaving only the Probe in Sump.

That completes my SPS Tank restart with the New Frags (which I was starting before I got the Electric Shock)

Less chances now with me getting killed. Hoping also less Killing of SPS this time.

 

[WallyB]

So it's been a week since I posted this thread, and lots of folks made a decision to either get a GFCI outlet, a Ground Probe, or both.

Wondering if anyone has followed thru for their Tank Safety?

 

[Jynxgirl]

Around 2007, I electrocuted myself when reaching in my tank after discovering a tang on the bottom that i had for years. It hurt like crazy. Ever since then, I always have a grounding probe in all my tanks.

 

[TheOne]

I should have been electrocuted 10x by now as many times as I have tripped my gfci while cleaning my tank. I even cut a wire on my t5 fixture this weekend working on my wiring and tripped it. I thought the power was off but apparently not. I've also had a grounding probe since day one just to help against stray voltage for the fish. I'm pretty sure my finnex titanium heaters act as grounding probes also but I still have a separate ground probe just in case.

My ground probe is only in sump. I have mp40 powerheads so no cords in display tank.