2 week old tank

[BeanAnimal]

Not exactly sure why you direct quoted me here but you do not need to do a traditional 4 week cycle to properly learn fundamentals. It sounds nice though.

I quoted you because I don‘t share your opinion.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I can agree with this. I did the 4 week cycle and learned that there are better ways at starting a reef tank. I could have avoided lots of headaches had I started with live rock (from the ocean).

There are too many variables to even comment. Your headaches indicated that you did something wrong. There is no magic number, 4 weeks with dry sand/rock and the lights on is a recipe to ow algae for sure.

Pouring in bacteria and a bottle of ammonia may speed things along via a kickstart, but you still don’t have a mature system (by any stretch) in 4 weeks. At best you are a few weeks ahead of the dry start folks… but the point all of you arguing about one method vs the other are missing is that every system will undergo drastic changes over the first year or two, regardless of how it was started and what you do or do not add.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Just to point out, if the store didn’t put a fresh gill sample under a microscope there is no way they could rule out velvet in this case. Even with a biopsy from a live fish it can be difficult to see under a scope.
Jay

Hi Jay - been a long time!

Nice to see you still around and armed with solid advice.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay - been a long time!

Nice to see you still around and armed with solid advice.

Hi, I recognize your screen name, but can't recall from where, Reef Central? I had pretty much been off of any forums for about a decade until I ended up here a couple of years ago.

Jay

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hi, I recognize your screen name, but can't recall from where, Reef Central? I had pretty much been off of any forums for about a decade until I ended up here a couple of years ago.

Jay

Yep RC - I took about a decade off from posting myself

 

[RockusDukakis33]

Is it possible the fish was bullied to death? Looks exhausted.

Good question and the owner of the LFS asked me this as well. The tank is next to my desk in my office and I watch it off and on through out the day. The two got along well and just hung out near each other with no nipping. Maybe it happened at night? There were no nipped fins but it’s possible.

 

[BeanAnimal]

If it were bullying in your tank or from the LFS, it would likely be stress related, not direct injury. Stress lowers immune response and fish get sick easier, and/or are less hardy in adverse conditions (poor water quality).

As for bullying: Nipped fins only happen sometimes, more often it drive-by attacks or constant personal space invasion that causes the stress. In some case, full broadside bumps or nips, but usually just chasing and harassment.

 

[RockusDukakis33]

If it were bullying in your tank or from the LFS, it would likely be stress related, not direct injury. Stress lowers immune response and fish get sick easier, and/or are less hardy in adverse conditions (poor water quality).

As for bullying: Nipped fins only happen sometimes, more often it drive-by attacks or constant personal space invasion that causes the stress. In some case, full broadside bumps or nips, but usually just chasing and harassment.

Thanks this makes sense. I appreciate the feedback!

 

[olonmv]

Good question and the owner of the LFS asked me this as well. The tank is next to my desk in my office and I watch it off and on through out the day. The two got along well and just hung out near each other with no nipping. Maybe it happened at night? There were no nipped fins but it’s possible.

My clown has the tendency of being a model citizen when I’m watching the tank but when she thinks I’m not……sometimes she’s an a hole.

 

[RockusDukakis33]

My clown has the tendency of being a model citizen when I’m watching the tank but when she thinks I’m not……sometimes she’s an ******.

Time to get the baby monitor out!

 

[ReefGeezer]

2 week old tank. Started with live sand, dry rock, and Fritz turbo start. Added fish and turbo start 4 days ago. Both clowns were fine yesterday and looked great. Today one is staying near the same bed and looks pail, breathing rapidly, and eyes aren’t as dark as the other.

All parameters are in the safe zone including ammonia below .02ppm. Nitrate is at 3ppm. Did a 10% water change today when I saw him looking pail and breathing rapidly.

let me know what you think and what I can do.

Sounds like you have done what you can do within the scope of your chosen cycling process. I would get a store credit for the dead fish and wait, maybe do a water change, and see what happens to the other fish.

One of the gotcha's when cycling with fish, or putting fish in quickly after a bottled bac, is the speed at which ammonia rises. When fish are added, particularly if fed more than just a smidge, ammonia can rise quickly and further stress a newly acclimated, and already somewhat stressed, specimen. In many cases, this is enough to allow for disease to get a foothold and progress quickly. No one can say for sure what happened. I'll put my chips on this scenario. As for the particular disease, I'd trust @Jay Hemdal.

 

[BeanAnimal]

My clown has the tendency of being a model citizen when I’m watching the tank but when she thinks I’m not……sometimes she’s an a hole.

Most aggressive fish that I ever owned was a tomato clown - it drew blood anytime that I put my hand in the tank. It was worse than the extremely mean domino damsel that was also a terror.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Sounds like you have done what you can do within the scope of your chosen cycling process. I would get a store credit for the dead fish and wait, maybe do a water change, and see what happens to the other fish.

One of the gotcha's when cycling with fish, or putting fish in quickly after a bottled bac, is the speed at which ammonia rises. When fish are added, particularly if fed more than just a smidge, ammonia can rise quickly and further stress a newly acclimated, and already somewhat stressed, specimen. In many cases, this is enough to allow for disease to get a foothold and progress quickly. No one can say for sure what happened. I'll put my chips on this scenario. As for the particular disease, I'd trust @Jay Hemdal.

That is my thought as well - and the reason for the constant "take it slow" advice. Everyone is in such a hurry to kill stuff in the name of enjoying it.

I wouldn't add another fish for weeks. Just enjoy what you have and get a handle for how water quality is affected by various actions, as well as watching the life take hold on the rock, sand and glass.... and brace for the inevitable diatom/cyano bloom that will come.

 

[Cell]

I quoted you because I don‘t share your opinion.

Didn't really seem like you were actually responding to my post, but I agree, you cannot buy a mature tank in a bottle. You can, however, learn fundamentals without performing the action.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Didn't really seem like you were actually responding to my post, but I agree, you cannot buy a mature tank in a bottle. You can, however, learn fundamentals without performing the action.

I am not part of the bottle bac debate... I don't care how you start the nitrogen cycle. In fact, I assume that ANY startup would benefit from dose of good bacteria being introduced. I just don't see it as a shortcut that gets you anything more than a few days or a week.

I am in the "If you are new to the hobby, you shouldn't have lights for at least a month and animals for maybe 2-3 months". Not so much that it is bad for the animals...or that you can put off the cyano 'cycle' forever, but the slower you go the more assured of success you are. Both because you are letting the system mature and because that is more time to spend learning.

 

[MnFish1]

Update:
I took a water sample and the fish (now deceased) to the LFS where I got him. This LFS is not a big chain and a local expert who gets a small shipment of fish in every week and specializes in pretty amazing coral. He sells out of his fish every week and there are zero reports of fish with velvet or ich on any reviews or the many local online groups that recommend him.

He tested the water parameters and Ammonia came back at 0, Nitrite at 0 and nitrate was around 7. He dipped the fish to see if parasites would fall out of his gills and none did. He stated no parasites or normal signs of velvet or ich appeared on its body. Something was wrong with the fish but the good news is it doesn't appear to be something that will affect the Clownfish still in the tank who is still looking awesome.

He will receive more Clownfish in this week and said he will replace the one I lost free of charge. He also offered to quarantine the new one for me if needed. I understand everyone's fear of a LFS saying whatever it takes to makes sales but this guy does not work that way and doesn't need to.

I will continue to monitor the parameters of the tank and monitor the remaining clown but I feel will better about the current state of the tank.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. Special ty to @brandon429, @N1tew0lf1212, @Dr. Reef (read his study on bottle bac, hard to argue true science), @MnFish1, and @Tamberav for working to assist.

Awesome for you - and you're right - picking a good LFS is often the best solution

 

[MnFish1]

While there are numerous methods to start a tank, there is no relative shortcut to maturity, stability, diversity, buffering capacity and depth of the ecosystem contained therein. To argue differently is silly, be the ‘system’ safe for animals or not.

The sage advice here from several people has been to take things slowly and learn as you go. Reefing is not a race, and most that treat it as one end up leaving broke and frustrated.

OP - Everyone thinks their LFS guy/gal is an expert. They (LFS folks) are no different than the people here arguing.… only a small percentage are experts, the rest…

Sorting out the BS is hard... That reality reinforces the ‘take your time’ advice. You will learn as you go, often through trial and error.

great - except there are several decades - proven aquarists saying that wrong - So - I guess my question would be what is YOUR evidence - please provide references etc documentation etc. IMHO - you are entirely incorrect in some situations - but - it is individual - not this specific case. Looking forward to your response

 

[MnFish1]

I quoted you because I don‘t share your opinion.

Not sure anyone has suggested - adding ammonia to a fish tank. Instead - the comment would bode of course thats not recommended. Instead - To start a tank - one can add bacteria and a reasonable amont of fish with no problem Interested in @Jay Hemdal opinion

 

[MnFish1]

There are too many variables to even comment. Your headaches indicated that you did something wrong. There is no magic number, 4 weeks with dry sand/rock and the lights on is a recipe to ow algae for sure.

Pouring in bacteria and a bottle of ammonia may speed things along via a kickstart, but you still don’t have a mature system (by any stretch) in 4 weeks. At best you are a few weeks ahead of the dry start folks… but the point all of you arguing about one method vs the other are missing is that every system will undergo drastic changes over the first year or two, regardless of how it was started and what you do or do not add.

Curious - what do you base your (seemigly) expert on - Note - this is not an insult just saying thats a very definitive statment?

 

[MnFish1]

I am not part of the bottle bac debate... I don't care how you start the nitrogen cycle. In fact, I assume that ANY startup would benefit from dose of good bacteria being introduced. I just don't see it as a shortcut that gets you anything more than a few days or a week.

I am in the "If you are new to the hobby, you shouldn't have lights for at least a month and animals for maybe 2-3 months". Not so much that it is bad for the animals...or that you can put off the cyano 'cycle' forever, but the slower you go the more assured of success you are. Both because you are letting the system mature and because that is more time to spend learning.

OK - great - prove the evidence for what you are saying - you might be right......provide the evidence