A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[moretor1]

Just curious, what foods are you recommending - you're recommending low protein foods (a major ammonia source)?

There is a time to test and there is always a time to test but not needed.?

I look at cycling testing for a novice aquarist and anyone else who wants to do it as a large advantage over not doing so - this is because one can actually see what's happening in their tank (when just starting up - ammonia, etc levels are certainly going to be unstable). I've already admitted that I don't use ammonia testing - or dosed ammonia (except in my experiments posted here). But - the way I learned to set up tanks was either with mostly live rock - or if using dry - at least 'some' dry rock. You can look at those in the experiment section. BUT - they do contradict the comments that a given chunk of live rock can immediately assimilate ammonia to non-toxic within 15 minutes (This is not in my experience true) - and they also contradict that idea that additional (the number) of ammonia reducers do not increase with more 'food' immediately or even within a day.

I dont think anyone is saying adding live rock to a tank with high ammonia would bring it down within 15 minutes, very few tanks (especially ones you would be pulling live rock from, as you typically want the most mature rock possible) maintain a "detectable" level of ammonia.
As such it would make sense that unless you are going overkill on the live rock, there would not be enough ammonia consuming bacteria to handle a sudden shift to .5ppm ammonia as the bacteria on the rock grew to support a system with a steady influx, but relatively low availability of ammonia and would have to be given time to multiply and tackle the much higher ammonia

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

With reference to Brandons opening post in this thread, he states that live rock transfers (skip cycle rocks in Brandon speak) are accompanied by sales folk trying to sell bottle bacteria, simultaneously. Has anyone encountered this phenomena? If so, what on earth do people think they are buying, and paying a premium for?

BRS did an evaluation of many different biome cycles. They added Dr Tims to "everything" including TBS live rock and sand in their study. personally I think that defeated the intent of true "live rock" addition and seemed to be promoting Dr Tims.

Episode 13: Biome Cycle Results, Grouper, Octopus, Clams, Wins and Missteps on 7 Reef Tanks | 52SE

Ryan brings everyone up to speed with what's been going on with the 7 52 Weeks of Reefing: Second Edition tanks.

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Just curious, what foods are you recommending - you're recommending low protein foods (a major ammonia source)?

There is a time to test and there is always a time to test but not needed.?

I look at cycling testing for a novice aquarist and anyone else who wants to do it as a large advantage over not doing so - this is because one can actually see what's happening in their tank (when just starting up - ammonia, etc levels are certainly going to be unstable). I've already admitted that I don't use ammonia testing - or dosed ammonia (except in my experiments posted here). But - the way I learned to set up tanks was either with mostly live rock - or if using dry - at least 'some' dry rock. You can look at those in the experiment section. BUT - they do contradict the comments that a given chunk of live rock can immediately assimilate ammonia to non-toxic within 15 minutes (This is not in my experience true) - and they also contradict that idea that additional (the number) of ammonia reducers do not increase with more 'food' immediately or even within a day.

The food so far I avoid is frozen, unless thoroughly rinsed and cleaned, and reef roods so far. I have found both in past to cause major out breaks. There could be more that cause the problem and other foods that don't contribute like benepets does. People can still have success with those and do. But because of my system and setup, I find the nutrients to be to much over a week and cause algae and other things. My only nitrate export is water changes. No skimmer and filter sock is just to catch debris to protect pump.

Sorry if testing comment was confusing. What I meant is times where testing would be necessary under certain conditions. There is times where you can test just to see things but not needed at that point. Extreme case, testing every hour of the day. It's not needed to be done, but doesn't hurt anything and isn't necessary to do. Testing isn't always necessary.

I don't know enough science about how long it takes but they do multiply rapidly. Now how rapidly due to availability isn't something I know. But we do know that we test and wont see ammonia once established. So bacteria has to be breaking it down quicker than it can be detected even in a fully stock tank it is hard to find true ammonia reading if there is. Most seem to be false. So if nutrients and such can't be broken down fast? Then why don't most tanks have detectable levels constantly?

The stability is Why I believe slow if it's dry rock and using corals for bacteria establishment and nutrient source is a good option. Corals bring in the bacteria but also produce little nutrients. Feeding will help the coral and the bacteria. Corals I read recently also do take in some but not much ammonia and can't take in nitrate as well. This allows for more early stability I feel by using corals and slowly building the tank diversity.

There is more than one way to skin a cat though lol. I usually let the person decide how they want to setup. I had been asked recently this. I gave them options and told my thoughts. The positive with dry rock and dosing ammonia or bottle bacteria or both is you remove the chance of pests. Now I'm off topic again lol. But sometimes depending on what someone wants, different advice can be given and I'll refer them if needed. Understanding of what a "cycle" is will help. I don't like the term due to the confusion and prefer bacteria establishment.

Definitely learning some things from you and lasse and everyone else though.

 

[Garf]

I don't know enough science about how long it takes but they do multiply rapidly.

True nitrifyers have a doubling time of anywhere between 12 and 36 hrs. Heterotrophs, it's 20 minutes. The shear numbers involved with heterophic reproduction necessarily can outcompete nitrifyers. Add a rock that's dominated by heterotrophs to a tank, then change the nutrient source, flow, (lighting with photosynthetic organisms) all sorts of odd things could happen.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Just fed tank again from yesterday. This picture I posted in my thread. No testing for 3 months. 100 percent weekly water changes and just moved the tank yesterday as well. I need to figure out cable management and light mounting now lol. I wish the shrimp would stay off the gonnis lol. The purple gonni is a bit ticked from prior flow and light change but has improved since readjusting. The elegance was first coral added and was added same day as the water was. I also understand that I can't keep most fish and to keep stocking light for inverts and fish.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

True nitrifyers have a doubling time of anywhere between 12 and 36 hrs. Heterotrophs, it's 20 minutes. The shear numbers involved with heterophic reproduction necessarily can outcompete nitrifyers. Add a rock that's dominated by heterotrophs to a tank, then change the nutrient source, flow, (lighting with photosynthetic organisms) all sorts of odd things could happen.

Thank you for that. Great info. Do you happen to know also the amount the nitrifyers and heterotrophic can intake and break down? Simplified for me to ppm lol. I need the dummies version.

 

[Garf]

Thank you for that. Great info. Do you happen to know also the amount the nitrifyers and heterotrophic can intake and break down? Simplified for me to ppm lol. I need the dummies version.

Sorry no. Probably unknowable. That's why testing is a good idea. Anybody who claims they know exactly how things react to a change in circumstances on a microscopic level, obviously do not understand how things react on a microscopic level. Perhaps AI will help, lol.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Sorry no. Probably unknowable. That's why testing is a good idea. Anybody who claims they know exactly how things react to a change in circumstances on a microscopic level, obviously do not understand how things react on a microscopic level. Perhaps AI will help, lol.

To many factors. If i think to much more I'll get a headache lol.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I dont think anyone is saying adding live rock to a tank with high ammonia would bring it down within 15 minutes,

The problem is that Brandon makes that very claim regularly. Just a few days ago... and I am sure several more times since then and hundreds of times before then.

The thread above was a tank move where Brandon to this day refuses to admit that the ammonia readings in the tank were real, no matter how they were verified. It was more like 7 days to stop rising and to start coming down.

As such it would make sense that unless you are going overkill on the live rock, there would not be enough ammonia consuming bacteria to handle a sudden shift

Most of us get that concept... But here we

I would also say that even if you have gone "overkill" the nitrifying bacteria counts will still be in balance with their current food source. They may take up more real estate (be spread out) but will not be more populous.

 

[MnFish1]

The food so far I avoid is frozen, unless thoroughly rinsed and cleaned, and reef roods so far. I have found both in past to cause major out breaks. There could be more that cause the problem and other foods that don't contribute like benepets does. People can still have success with those and do. But because of my system and setup, I find the nutrients to be to much over a week and cause algae and other things. My only nitrate export is water changes. No skimmer and filter sock is just to catch debris to protect pump.

Sorry if testing comment was confusing. What I meant is times where testing would be necessary under certain conditions. There is times where you can test just to see things but not needed at that point. Extreme case, testing every hour of the day. It's not needed to be done, but doesn't hurt anything and isn't necessary to do. Testing isn't always necessary.

I don't know enough science about how long it takes but they do multiply rapidly. Now how rapidly due to availability isn't something I know. But we do know that we test and wont see ammonia once established. So bacteria has to be breaking it down quicker than it can be detected even in a fully stock tank it is hard to find true ammonia reading if there is. Most seem to be false. So if nutrients and such can't be broken down fast? Then why don't most tanks have detectable levels constantly?

The stability is Why I believe slow if it's dry rock and using corals for bacteria establishment and nutrient source is a good option. Corals bring in the bacteria but also produce little nutrients. Feeding will help the coral and the bacteria. Corals I read recently also do take in some but not much ammonia and can't take in nitrate as well. This allows for more early stability I feel by using corals and slowly building the tank diversity.

There is more than one way to skin a cat though lol. I usually let the person decide how they want to setup. I had been asked recently this. I gave them options and told my thoughts. The positive with dry rock and dosing ammonia or bottle bacteria or both is you remove the chance of pests. Now I'm off topic again lol. But sometimes depending on what someone wants, different advice can be given and I'll refer them if needed. Understanding of what a "cycle" is will help. I don't like the term due to the confusion and prefer bacteria establishment.

Definitely learning some things from you and lasse and everyone else though.

Actually - I was going to set up a new tank - starting with dry rock, bacteria, and corals after a day or 2 - with a couple small fish

 

[MnFish1]

Just fed tank again from yesterday. This picture I posted in my thread. No testing for 3 months. 100 percent weekly water changes and just moved the tank yesterday as well. I need to figure out cable management and light mounting now lol. I wish the shrimp would stay off the gonnis lol. The purple gonni is a bit ticked from prior flow and light change but has improved since readjusting. The elegance was first coral added and was added same day as the water was. I also understand that I can't keep most fish and to keep stocking light for inverts and fish.

nice tank - and with 100% water changes - I don't see any reason to test anything either - except if your nutrients were possibly getting too low.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you for that. Great info. Do you happen to know also the amount the nitrifyers and heterotrophic can intake and break down? Simplified for me to ppm lol. I need the dummies version.

You can certainly do it in a lab - and I'm sure its been done somewhere - the problem comes in when you put bacteria in a tank - you really cannot figure out how much is added - or how much survived. So - I'm not sure it would help to know that information? But maybe you're thinking of it differently

 

[MnFish1]

again, I don't mind some back and forth but MN this is a links based thread

90% of my kickups here are jobs I completed that fit the bill. work some links that involve other people's reef tanks into your posts somehow, that's what I'm doing. I'm actively involved in any link placed here.

I don't want this a word thread

rather a links and outcome thread. all my links and all my outcomes are in line with happy reefers, that's what we're collecting.

if one fails, am here for the account. if we keep this jobs and outcome based there's lesser room for volumes of arguments about theory. that's every other type of cycling thread. some of them have to just be about the jobs, that's this one.

find a problematic skip cycle out there and link it back/ let's hash out a live time job. the next cycle challenge thread you see posted, link it here we can make a quick prediction run.

If you're defining a skip cycle as taking the same amount of rock and same filtration capacity, and the same bioload - and moving from one tank to another larger one - or the same size - I completely agree with you.

Here, though is a skip cycle I would not want to try - Reefer A has a tank thats 50 gallons - he/she has an appropriate amount of live rock, the cycle is done, everything is healthy, parameters are normal. Ammonia is zero. If you took all of your 50 gallons of filtration ability, rock, and you decide to add 3 anemones and 4 clownfish and 4 large tangs into a 200 gallon tank. I would not trust this as a skip cycle example - and I would most certainly be testing the water if I didn't add more nitrification.

 

[MnFish1]

I dont think anyone is saying adding live rock to a tank with high ammonia would bring it down within 15 minutes, very few tanks (especially ones you would be pulling live rock from, as you typically want the most mature rock possible) maintain a "detectable" level of ammonia.
As such it would make sense that unless you are going overkill on the live rock, there would not be enough ammonia consuming bacteria to handle a sudden shift to .5ppm ammonia as the bacteria on the rock grew to support a system with a steady influx, but relatively low availability of ammonia and would have to be given time to multiply and tackle the much higher ammonia

It has been said multiple times. I agree with your ideas

 

[Lasse]

The problem with these "skip cycle" and "rip clean" advises is that they normally comes from nano reefers where the bio load is very small but often transfers to people with "normal" reef aquarium. I do not doubt that the method works in a nano that in practise get a new start every week. But - IMO - its a total other thing in a normal larger reef aquarium

Source of total ammonia (NH3/NH4)

All living (organic) matters contain proteins. Proteins consist of amino acids that among other things have amino groups - NH2 molecules. When organic matters is consumed (of heterotrophic organisms ) some amino acids is incorporated directly (the essential) and other is transformed into new - species specific - amino acids. This process create a waste of amino groups that´s are released into the environment in different ways. For mammals and many animals on land - its normally by forming of urea that are transferred out from the body through the pee as urin. For heterotrophs that lives in the water its normally by more direct pathways - heterotopic bacteria probably through diffusion (passive transport along a concentration) and gill breathing heterotrophs mostly by active transport (against a concentration) in "ion pumps" located in the gills.

The proteins content around 16 % N and for warmblooded heterotrophs - around 90 % will be washed out and for coldblooded heterotrophs - the corresponded amount is around 75-80 %

Dry food and dry algae often contain around 40 % protein and frozen and fresh food normally contain around 2-4 % protein. Total opposite to the normal though that dry food is "cleaner" than frozen food - dry food many times add more than 10 times more NH3/NH4 to the aquarium compared to frozen food per gram added food.

Fish´s - and especially salt water fish´s - major pathway for NH3/NH4 secretion is through the gills and mostly the first hours after feeding. Around 80 % of the waste N is going this way. saltwater fish does not pee very much.

Heterotrophic bacteria´s secretion is 24/7 if organic matter is present and the rate is depending on the availability of organic carbon. If there is DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) present (and mostly enough of oxygen) - the rate of breakdown is fast, hence more NH3/NH4 out in the water.

The facts above means that in a newly started aquarium with no or low organic matter content - the primary source for NH3/NH4 in the water is from the gill breathing animals (read mainly from the fish) metabolism. If this aquarium only have som tiny fish and will be rip cleaned every week there is no risk for toxic NH3 formation because the tiny amount of NH3/NH4 accumulated will be washed out every week. However if the load of food rise (many hungry fish) in a normal aquarium - the released NH3/NH4 will form toxic NH3 sooner or later if it is not converted and the amount of dead organic matter (that heterotrophic bacteria will consume) will add another source for NH3/NH4,

The reason why "cycle direct" and weekly "rip cleaning" works in a Pico is not that the system have working nitrification or in any way is cycled - is because there is not present (and can not accumulate) any toxic amount of NH3.

Toxicity of ammonia (NH3/NH4)

In many countries you have different name for NH4 and NH3 - in Swedish NH4 is named ammonium and NH3 ammoniac. In the US the most common name for NH4 is ammonia and for NH3 ammonia ion. This often create confusion. NH4 is NOT toxic but NH3 is highly toxic. They will also always be present as a pair (NH3/NH4) in water - often named total ammonia. However - the percentage of each of them can vary (for the same total concentration) mainly because of temperature, salinity and pH. PH is the most important factor.

See figures - calculation done by help of this tool

Blue 25 C, reddish 26 C and green 27 C (77, 78.8 and 80.6 degree F)

This means that if someone read 0.2 mg/L total ammonia (NH3+NH4) is no cow on the ice at all It can´t be any toxic amount of free NH3 in normal pH- pH must be over 9 to even reach the alert concentration (O.06 mg/L NH3)

The nitrification cycle

If not nitrification exist - it should be more or less impossible to hold saltwater aquarium of certain size or without low load and 100% WC each week.

As I said before in post 370 - the nitrification is a 2 step process

The classic nitrification cycle include 2 steps - the first when microorganism of different types oxidize NH4/NH3 (total ammonia) into NO2 (nitrite) . Its mostly ammonium oxidizing archaea (AOA) and ammonium oxidizing bacteria (AOB). The most well-known of these AOB is bacteria from the genus nitrosomonas This is normally a rather fast starting process that can take place in oxygen levels down to around 2-3 mg O2/L

The second step - oxidizing NO2 (nitrite) into NO3 (nitrate) is done by Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria (NOB) and well known is different species from the genus nitrospira and nitrobacter.

Its here the process can go wrong and the complete cycle stalls - NO2 will be accumulated. This second process is known as a slow starter and high NH3/NH4 concentrations can slow down this second step. This step is also more oxygen depended than the first step. In fresh water - it needs a O2 concentration around 5 mg/L in order to work well. Its well documented that this stall often happens both in fresh and saltwater. Especially in new started tanks there PO4 is low or absent - IME

This below is the secret both for a successful and an unsuccessful nitrification

Both AOA, AOB and NOB is normally autotroph bacteria that do not use organic carbon or organic nutrients - they need inorganic carbon, PO4 and inorganic nitrogen like NH4/NO3

This means that they do not need any organic matter at all - if they have NH3/NH4 (first step) NO2 (second step), oxygen. place to live on, inorganic carbon in form of alkalinity. trace amounts of PO4 and few competitors for oxygen and space they will thrive and grow. But - as @Garf already have stated - they are slow growers (from a bacterial perspective) - population doubling time over 13 hours. This means that they have huge problems if they have to many heterotrophic bacteria (need organic matters) that many times can have doublings times down to 15 minutes.

This is the reason why a new clean aquaria can be heaven for these bacteria - no competitors, much oxygen and free space to sit on. They only need energy. They are like algae and plants - they can use external energy but in their case - its not light energy in form of photons - it is the energy differences between NH3/NH4 and NO2 for the first step and NO2 and NO3 in the second step. Normally - these bacteria is everywhere but because of their slow growth - its wise to introduce them in your aquaria - it could be in the form of bottled nitrification bacteria, bacteria film in form of aerobic sludge, stones, water with inorganic particles and so on. But in the start - it is important that not to many heterotrophic bacteria will be introduced and especially not their fuel - organic carbon in form of. Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) - etanol, suger or whatever.

I mentioned the second step and it has been shown that it can halt if total NH4/NH3 is too high - therefore - IMO - all methods including high addition of NH3/NH4 is contra-productive. The ammonia (NH3/NH4) should be add in very low concentrations during time. My 15 steps to start a saltwater aquarium include a method just for this - use a healthy and well feed fish that is feed very sparsely the first three weeks.

IMO - you have around three weeks before the NH3/NH4 production from the heterotrophic bacteria is high enough to interfere with your calculated NH3/NH4 addition but at that time the process should been established and you can slowly rise your bioload - feeding more, adding more fish (need more feed) and so on.

In my mature aquarium - the NH3/NH4 production from my heterotrophic bacteria is - IMO - the main contributors of total ammonia in my aquarium - not the daily feed.

One more thing I have experienced during the years is that if you once have established an high nitrification rate - it seems like the nitrification microorganism can get dormant if the load decline or the process is disturbed. When load is normal or everything is OK again - it works like before. But its always wise to rise the feeding slowly after such events.

The main question - why test.

My 15 steps is sufficiently calculated not to produce toxic levels of NH3 even if NH3/NH4 accumulates - its means - if you follow this - no testing is necessary but if you want to feel safe or start with high levels of total ammonia tests is rather comfortable to do.

I prefer test that give you total ammonia because of the pH depended NH3 to NH3/NH4 relationship. If your test (with seney or other NH3 sensitive methods) says good in the morning - it is not sure that its good in the afternoon when photosynthesis have driven up pH. With total ammonia - you can calculate the risk if you now your afternoon pH peak.

I also prefer tests that give you a number - like the checkers because to read colours is not my cup of tea. Today I use the Hanna Marine Master and I´m rather pleased with that. The readings still needs some thoughts but comparing colours that I not remember is more tricky.

This is a very long post but this discussions pop up the whole time and now I only have to quote this post in every discussion about nitrification cycling that pop up because most important factors are described here.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Falsehood stated again:


“The problem with these "skip cycle" and "rip clean" advises is that they normally comes from nano reefers where the bio load is very small but often transfers to people with "normal" reef aquarium. I do not doubt that the method works in a nano that in practise get a new start every week. But - IMO - its a total other thing in a normal larger reef aquarium”

Response: rip cleans including 200 gallon aquariums, a hundred of these jobs were not nanos:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

This isn’t a rip clean thread Lasse. You’ve confused beef from the chemistry forum into this thread. And you’re making false statements where I have what you said didn’t work on file for nine years running, large bioload setups.

 

[brandon429]

Lasse

Want to see what being accountable for a large job looks like? The job hadn’t begun yet, we are in the prediction making phase

Worried if the Seam is Damaged! Need help

What do you uys think of this response from Red Sea. I am baffled about few things @vetteguy53081 @Reeferbadness @exnisstech @fishguy242 @Troylee 1. They say its intact and their seam protector strips are preventing the damage - Have no idea what this Seam Protector strips are and how they...

www.reef2reef.com

Notice the details: large reef, about to be rip cleaned, a custom transfer job was written for him live time, based on those jobs above and his tank pics

If that reef crashes I estimate it’s a ten thousand dollar loss.

That’s not a nano right?


Check there for updates as we do the live time work with consequences in place for bad science and happy tank owners evident for good science in place.



If you were self-tasked with transferring that man’s entire reef safely, I’d be curious which book paragraphs you’d cut and paste to him.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

Just fed tank again from yesterday. This picture I posted in my thread. No testing for 3 months. 100 percent weekly water changes and just moved the tank yesterday as well. I need to figure out cable management and light mounting now lol. I wish the shrimp would stay off the gonnis lol. The purple gonni is a bit ticked from prior flow and light change but has improved since readjusting. The elegance was first coral added and was added same day as the water was. I also understand that I can't keep most fish and to keep stocking light for inverts and fish.

I like that elegance

 

[BeanAnimal]

Continually citing “jobs” is becoming scapegoat for not answering questions when confronted.

Most of these hundreds (thousands?) of “jobs” that you keep citing and linking are just other peoples threads where you have posted or interjected and where your posts, more often than not have been contentious or part of an argument. The posts in those threads, more links to other threads, all with more like arguments.

What makes your advice “live time accountable work” and that of others posting advice along side you, but in disagreement not?

 

[Garf]

Lasse

Want to see what being accountable for a large job looks like? The job hadn’t begun yet, we are in the prediction making phase

Worried if the Seam is Damaged! Need help

What do you uys think of this response from Red Sea. I am baffled about few things @vetteguy53081 @Reeferbadness @exnisstech @fishguy242 @Troylee 1. They say its intact and their seam protector strips are preventing the damage - Have no idea what this Seam Protector strips are and how they...

www.reef2reef.com

Notice the details: large reef, about to be rip cleaned, a custom transfer job was written for him live time, based on those jobs above and his tank pics, and look I wasn’t pasting paragraphs from someone else’s article from a book - real risk is on the line. If that reef crashes I estimate it’s a ten thousand dollar loss. The irony is when we pull it off, those who stay the heck away from real jobs will be the first to critique the process or maybe they’ll say nothing at all, I like it that way. I like when theories can’t actually get a task done, and we have to make a real plan and test it.

That’s not a nano right?


Check there for updates as we do the real work



If you were tasked with transferring that man’s entire reef safely, I’d be curious which book paragraphs you’d cut and paste to him.

But he's only moving rock, fish and corals from one established tank to a new tank. People have been doing that for eons. You make it sound like you've invented it, lol. Those rocks are not from an unknown source, I expect it'll turn out just grand, like when I had to do an emergency tank change nearly 20 years ago.