Alkalinity/Calcium Daily drop with no livestock

[GoVols]

Why in a empty tank he is dosing so many things????

Another +1

 

[Brew12]

Read the Nitrate post from above. I have KNO3 on hand from my planted tanks. I can easily dose. It appears that an initial target would be to bring it to 2ppm?

I think what is most important is to try and maintain the Redfield ratio. 16 parts NO3 to 1 part PO4 (or 14:1 if you like the newer update). I would probably try to shoot for 4ppm to 5ppm NO3 just to give a little buffer. Higher nitrates give you a little bit of a buffer against Alk swings imo.

 

[Anirban]

Nope, I've never seen anything like it either. Just wanted to make sure you were taking it into consideration. This one has been very baffling to me.

Yeah, thats why I am guessing he is fighting with some sort of slimy algae. He started the whole thing in a wrong way. I think someone misinformed him about the whole process and and how to proceed. So, the system is nutritionally and chemically quite imbalanced right now.

 

[Anirban]

I think what is most important is to try and maintain the Redfield ratio. 16 parts NO3 to 1 part PO4 (or 14:1 if you like the newer update). I would probably try to shoot for 4ppm to 5ppm NO3 just to give a little buffer. Higher nitrates give you a little bit of a buffer against Alk swings imo.

+1

 

[Brew12]

These are my thoughts on how best to proceed.

Dose 2 part to maintain Alk and Calc
Dose KNO3 to raise and maintain NO3 to 4ppm(ish)
Stop all other dosing.
Run GAC.
Discontinue use of any reactors/GFO you may have in your system.
Stop water changes for at least a week.

After 1 week, evaluate where you are at and how your system is responding.

 

[GoVols]

@Jeff Miotke
Please don't give up.
You just got too many things going from the start and I just stay within the basics unless something else is needed. (From learning the hard way too)

It's going to take time but you will be successful and gratified!

 

[anit77]

Jeff, I hope you're not taking my last post negatively. I'm trying to get you the best advise to get your system on track. I know it will happen and in a year or two it will be a sight to behold.

Personally I think there have been way too many products used in such a short period of time on a new tank that it never got a chance to find its equilibrium. I think it's time to take a step back and reassess it. Stop dosing everything, run GAC and let the alk fall where it may, then do a water change after a week. As long as the ph doesn't fall to low to jeopardize the fish, if that looks like it's going to happen before a week is up dose some carbonate. There's no coral in there yet so trying to maintain any ratios isn't going to help anything yet. Let the system find it's balance naturally.

Add some CUC to the tank. Unless you have small fish that won't eat anything else stop feeding brine shrimp and stick to a diet heavier in mysis (1 to 1-1/2 cubes a day?) with selcon and half the pellet you've been feeding. The only nutition in the brine is coming from the selcon you put in it. Unless it's fresh hatched baby brine it's nothing more than popcorn for fish. If there is any bad bacteria growing it will start to die off quickly by feeding less and cutting off its carbon source, so skimming slightly wet will help pull it out. When you start seeing NO3 & PO4 coming up add a softy or two and see how they do.

In the mean time post up the info requested so Brew & Anirban can get a better grasp of what may be going on. But most of all remember the first rule. "Nothing happens fast in this hobby other than death"

Oh, and forget about using the water change system for at least a month or two.

 

[Brew12]

Jeff, I hope you're not taking my last post negatively. I'm trying to get you the best advise to get your system on track. I know it will happen and in a year or two it will be a sight to behold.

Personally I think there have been way too many products used in such a short period of time on a new tank that it never got a chance to find its equilibrium. I think it's time to take a step back and reassess it. Stop dosing everything, run GAC and let the alk fall where it may, then do a water change after a week. As long as the ph doesn't fall to low to jeopardize the fish, if that looks like it's going to happen before a week is up dose some carbonate. There's no coral in there yet so trying to maintain any ratios isn't going to help anything yet. Let the system find it's balance naturally.

Add some CUC to the tank. Unless you have small fish that won't eat anything else stop feeding brine shrimp and stick to a diet heavier in mysis (1 to 1-1/2 cubes a day?) with selcon and half the pellet you've been feeding. The only nutition in the brine is coming from the selcon you put in it. Unless it's fresh hatched baby brine it's nothing more than popcorn for fish. If there is any bad bacteria growing it will start to die off quickly by feeding less and cutting off its carbon source, so skimming slightly wet will help pull it out. When you start seeing NO3 & PO4 coming up add a softy or two and see how they do.

In the mean time post up the info requested so Brew & Anirban can get a better grasp of what may be going on. But most of all remember the first rule. "Nothing happens fast in this hobby other than death"

I think most of this is fantastic advice. Honestly, I'm not sure it matters too much what has been done up to this point. The important thing is to simplify as much as possible to eliminate variables.

I know the Redfield ratio is thought of as a coral enhancement ratio but I also think it is important to reduce bacteria levels. It seems like different bacteria dominates in systems that are either NO3 or PO4 deficient. When the ratio is closer to being correct I feel this shifts growth from bacteria to algae. I wouldn't say it is important to dose KNO3 at this point, but I do think it makes sense.

I also wouldn't say that dosing 2 part is critical but it will help reduce stress on the fish and provide almost immediate feedback on tank conditions. Giving it more thought.... I may only recommend dosing the Alk component of the 2-part.

 

[Surfandturf]

So when you make water for your water change, what's your calc, mag and kh levels of your new water?

 

[anit77]

I think most of this is fantastic advice. Honestly, I'm not sure it matters too much what has been done up to this point. The important thing is to simplify as much as possible to eliminate variables.

I know the Redfield ratio is thought of as a coral enhancement ratio but I also think it is important to reduce bacteria levels. It seems like different bacteria dominates in systems that are either NO3 or PO4 deficient. When the ratio is closer to being correct I feel this shifts growth from bacteria to algae. I wouldn't say it is important to dose KNO3 at this point, but I do think it makes sense.

I also wouldn't say that dosing 2 part is critical but it will help reduce stress on the fish and provide almost immediate feedback on tank conditions. Giving it more thought.... I may only recommend dosing the Alk component of the 2-part.

Can there be that much bad bacteria in a system only in the water column and collecting filter socks? In the recent pics of the tank the water is pretty clear, if not crystal clear. There doesn't appear to be any masses of slim in the sand or in the sump and the discoloration on the rocks doesn't scrub off.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

I think most of this is fantastic advice. Honestly, I'm not sure it matters too much what has been done up to this point. The important thing is to simplify as much as possible to eliminate variables.

I know the Redfield ratio is thought of as a coral enhancement ratio but I also think it is important to reduce bacteria levels. It seems like different bacteria dominates in systems that are either NO3 or PO4 deficient. When the ratio is closer to being correct I feel this shifts growth from bacteria to algae. I wouldn't say it is important to dose KNO3 at this point, but I do think it makes sense.

I also wouldn't say that dosing 2 part is critical but it will help reduce stress on the fish and provide almost immediate feedback on tank conditions. Giving it more thought.... I may only recommend dosing the Alk component of the 2-part.

Ok. I can easily add the KNO3. It is about 2.5 grams. Add all at one time and just adjust level from 0.25 to 4?

Calcium is currently at 435ppm and alkalinity is at 7.8
Dosing 125 ml of both 2 part throughout the day. Alkalinity and calcium looks stable at this dose.
Auto water changer is off since yesterday.
Added 1 emerald crab and 3 astrea snails (total 8 now). I have no more cuc to add for now.

 

[Brew12]

Can there be that much bad bacteria in a system only in the water column and collecting filter socks? In the recent pics of the tank the water is pretty clear, if not crystal clear. There doesn't appear to be any masses of slim in the sand or in the sump and the discoloration on the rocks doesn't scrub off.

I wouldn't have thought much of what he is experiencing is possible. I would have expected his system to look horrible to be having the troubles he is, not pristine like it does.

Bacteria growth is the only explanation I can find to the high Alk consumption. Filter socks are a great medium for growing bacteria since there is lots of surface area and plenty of flow to transport nutrients. The slimy substance could be algae but without putting it under a microscope it is hard to say for sure.

 

[Brew12]

Ok. I can easily add the KNO3. It is about 2.5 grams. Add all at one time and just adjust level from 0.25 to 4?

Calcium is currently at 435ppm and alkalinity is at 7.8
Dosing 125 ml of both 2 part throughout the day. Alkalinity and calcium looks stable at this dose.
Auto water changer is off since yesterday.
Added 1 emerald crab and 3 astrea snails (total 8 now). I have no more cuc to add for now.

I would try to raise it 1ppm a day. Even when trying to restore parameters to normal it is best to do changes slowly imo.

What you "should" see is that your NO3 will drop as your system consumes it similar to the Alk and Calc. Once your system starts to get a better balance you will need to add much less KNO3 to maintain the desired NO3 until you stop dosing entirely. My first experience with KNO3 dosing did not go well. I figured out what I needed to add to keep it at 20ppm and it worked great for about a week. 2 days later I was at 80ppm and I haven't added KNO3 since. I just finally crossed a threshold and it jumped up.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Jeff, I hope you're not taking my last post negatively. I'm trying to get you the best advise to get your system on track. I know it will happen and in a year or two it will be a sight to behold.

Personally I think there have been way too many products used in such a short period of time on a new tank that it never got a chance to find its equilibrium. I think it's time to take a step back and reassess it. Stop dosing everything, run GAC and let the alk fall where it may, then do a water change after a week. As long as the ph doesn't fall to low to jeopardize the fish, if that looks like it's going to happen before a week is up dose some carbonate. There's no coral in there yet so trying to maintain any ratios isn't going to help anything yet. Let the system find it's balance naturally.

Add some CUC to the tank. Unless you have small fish that won't eat anything else stop feeding brine shrimp and stick to a diet heavier in mysis (1 to 1-1/2 cubes a day?) with selcon and half the pellet you've been feeding. The only nutition in the brine is coming from the selcon you put in it. Unless it's fresh hatched baby brine it's nothing more than popcorn for fish. If there is any bad bacteria growing it will start to die off quickly by feeding less and cutting off its carbon source, so skimming slightly wet will help pull it out. When you start seeing NO3 & PO4 coming up add a softy or two and see how they do.

In the mean time post up the info requested so Brew & Anirban can get a better grasp of what may be going on. But most of all remember the first rule. "Nothing happens fast in this hobby other than death"

Oh, and forget about using the water change system for at least a month or two.

No worries. Nothing taken negatively. I am just thankful to have so many folks helping me. My personality is to only reach out for help when I'm at wits end which is obvious by all the things Ive tried up to this point. Drives my wife crazy and I get the "told you so" speech. I dont think Im far off from turning the corner on this but Ive been thinking that for months now and it hasnt happened. So Im here and kicking myself for not being here sooner.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know the Redfield ratio is thought of as a coral enhancement ratio but I also think it is important to reduce bacteria levels. It seems like different bacteria dominates in systems that are either NO3 or PO4 deficient. When the ratio is closer to being correct I feel this shifts growth from bacteria to algae. I wouldn't say it is important to dose KNO3 at this point, but I do think it makes sense.

FWIW, I think people misunderstand the Redfield ratio.

It is not a ratio in the water. It is an C : N : P uptake ratio by phytoplankton (or the ratio in them, which is essentially the same thing), and is largely independent of the values in the water (assuming there is enough present of each to take up).

 

[Jeff Miotke]

I would try to raise it 1ppm a day. Even when trying to restore parameters to normal it is best to do changes slowly imo.

What you "should" see is that your NO3 will drop as your system consumes it similar to the Alk and Calc. Once your system starts to get a better balance you will need to add much less KNO3 to maintain the desired NO3 until you stop dosing entirely. My first experience with KNO3 dosing did not go well. I figured out what I needed to add to keep it at 20ppm and it worked great for about a week. 2 days later I was at 80ppm and I haven't added KNO3 since. I just finally crossed a threshold and it jumped up.

Ok just added 0.8g of KNO3 which should raise the value to 1ppm NO3. Ill keep dosing that daily for now and doing a NO3 test to verify the numbers. Also ordered a Nyos Nitrate test kit just to make sure the values can be trusted. Lesson learned after the bad Mg kit. Im assuming that after a few days if the measurement is not increasing then increase the dose until 4ppm is maintained.

Also added a few corals I'm not attached too. two montipora frags, 6"pavonia (Not sure on ID as it was a freebie from LFS), birdsnest frag.

 

[GoVols]

No worries. Nothing taken negatively. I am just thankful to have so many folks helping me. My personality is to only reach out for help when I'm at wits end which is obvious by all the things Ive tried up to this point. Drives my wife crazy and I get the "told you so" speech. I dont think Im far off from turning the corner on this but Ive been thinking that for months now and it hasnt happened. So Im here and kicking myself for not being here sooner.

We've all been in your shoes and R2R is family.

So, please don't hesitate to ask on R2R if you not certain.

@Brew12 Thank you so much for guiding him.

Regards, GoVols

 

[Brew12]

FWIW, I think people misunderstand the Redfield ratio.

It is not a ratio in the water. It is an C : N : P uptake ratio by phytoplankton (or the ratio in them, which is essentially the same thing), and is largely independent of the values in the water (assuming there is enough present of each to take up).

Thank you, that is a very important point. It's not so much that we need to maintain that ratio in the water for the uptake, it is important to make sure there is a good balance to allow the phytoplankton to have the proper uptake without having any of the 3 in a large deficit or surplus.

 

[GoVols]

Thank you, that is a very important point. It's not so much that we need to maintain that ratio in the water for the uptake, it is important to make sure there is a good balance to allow the phytoplankton to have the proper uptake without having any of the 3 in a large deficit or surplus.

Lol,
What is the "Redfield ratio" used for?

 

[anit77]

No worries. Nothing taken negatively. I am just thankful to have so many folks helping me. My personality is to only reach out for help when I'm at wits end which is obvious by all the things Ive tried up to this point. Drives my wife crazy and I get the "told you so" speech. I dont think Im far off from turning the corner on this but Ive been thinking that for months now and it hasnt happened. So Im here and kicking myself for not being here sooner.

I've gotten that look more time than I can count too. I will say that this is one hobby where I've tried to reach out quick when I can't figure something out in short order. There's to big a potential for major problems. The more time goes by the more money gets included in the system. But more than the money is the time, effort and care you've put into it. There's lot of good places to get info from. This is the best Reef site on the net right now. Locally there's a lot of good helpful people on ARC and we're also blessed with quite a few really good LFS's.

I the mean time don't treat for things you don't have and don't feed things that aren't in the tank. I think most of the stuff you were adding in the DT would have been better suited in much smaller amounts for the frag tank. It's almost never wise to shift any parameter quickly. Slow and steady... If you get a test result that doesn't look right test it again. If that one is off too test it with a different test. If it's still off ask for help and take a sample to a LFS and get it tested. Over time you'll gain the knowledge on how to handle things.

I will tell you this... Once it balances out and parameters fall in line everything will just fall into place. The tank will start taking off and you'll have an ah ha moment.