Are really stringy white poops a sign of internal parasites or is it a myth?

[eatbreakfast]

This is where my biggest issue is: if starvation is the liklier cause of white stringy feces than internal parasites, and starvation beforeshipping is a standard practice, why aren't a greater percentage of fish showing up with white stringy feces?

Most of the fish Ideal with are coming in direct from country of collection, and because of this my overall losses are less than when I bring in fish from wholesalers. The majority of these fish have normal feces, whereas if it was starvation related(which all of them are experiencing). A greater proportion should be showing these symptoms.

That has also been my point with discus. Adult discus are starved for at least 3 days prior to shipping, and white stringy feces are never an issue in this period, but rather when they get introduced to fish that have parasites.

All that has been pointed out is that there are other possibilities other than internal parasites, but it still seems that it is more probable that it is related to internal parasites.

 

[Brew12]

This is where my biggest issue is: if starvation is the liklier cause of white stringy feces than internal parasites, and starvation beforeshipping is a standard practice, why aren't a greater percentage of fish showing up with white stringy feces?

Most of the fish Ideal with are coming in direct from country of collection, and because of this my overall losses are less than when I bring in fish from wholesalers. The majority of these fish have normal feces, whereas if it was starvation related(which all of them are experiencing). A greater proportion should be showing these symptoms.

That has also been my point with discus. Adult discus are starved for at least 3 days prior to shipping, and white stringy feces are never an issue in this period, but rather when they get introduced to fish that have parasites.

All that has been pointed out is that there are other possibilities other than internal parasites, but it still seems that it is more probable that it is related to internal parasites.

I have no idea if starvation is the likelier cause. It is a possible cause and one that should be considered prior to treating with an antibiotic that damages the fishes immune system and is a known carcinogen imo.

I have a much more limited experience than either you or Lasse, but I have seen this in at least half of the fish I have ordered online (normally through LA) and I've only specifically treated very few of them for internal parasites. I only added GC to my method recently (fears of internal uronema) and in the rest of the cases it has cleared up on its own. Could what I see be starvation or stress related? Possible. Could it be parasites? Also possible. I do feel my fish are healthier by letting it clear up on its own than if I had treated them with Metro.

 

[mta_morrow]

and myths die hard

Agreed

 

[eatbreakfast]

I don't have research to back it up, but my feeling is that many fish have internal parasites, but are able to manage it without symptoms. Those symptoms show up under stress. In some cases, when those stressors get under control, the symptoms subside because the fish goes back to its prior condition, of having parasites, but managing it.

So is a fish with a "manageable" parasite load healthier than a fish that gets treated for parasites, but has to get it's gut biome built back up?

 

[DSC reef]

Over the course of a 5 years we recieved a total of 4 clownfish that had white stringy poop. After doing research we were on the fence of medicating with the first clown that we experienced this issue. We decided to pass on meds and fed a really good diet and the fish not only pulled through but thrived. I will say all those were eating but looked thin. I think it's dangerous to tell every new hobbyist that medication is the only way just as much as saying you never have to quarintine. What works for one won't work for another but after reading so many threads like this it appears no one will agree and there will always be a divide in "QT" camp. Its unfortunate really because we are all well experienced hobbyists with our own experiences but somehow I feel your looked down on if you do one over the other.

 

[Brew12]

So is a fish with a "manageable" parasite load healthier than a fish that gets treated for parasites, but has to get it's gut biome built back up?

That is a tough question. I've spent much of the last week trying to write an article on just this topic and its hard to stay out of the weeds. My opinion is that, depending on the parasite, the fish managing the parasite is healthier. The main difference between a pathogen and a disease is the level of damage being done to the host. Some pathogens are actually beneficial and only become dangerous when they get out of balance or are beyond what an immune system can fight off.
Although I hate the analogy because aquariums are far from sterile, is the boy in the bubble with no immune system healthier than the one playing outside that catches the occasional cold? Fish need more frequent exposure to a pathogen to maintain their innate immunity than most mammals do. If a person needed a vaccine every 6 months for measles (would be more representative of a fish immunity) would the vaccinated person be healthier than an unvaccinated person? I feel the vaccinated person is healthier despite the fact that they are given a weakened version of the measles virus. Just like I feel that a fish with a parasite that is weakened by its immune system is healthier than one with no exposure or innate resistance.
To be clear, some parasites are unable to be adequately weakened by a fishes immune system and I feel those should absolutely be eliminated.

As for building the gut biome back up, I'm not even sure that is really possible to be done effectively in an aquarium. Short of live or fresh seafood, I'm not sure how we could replace what is potentially destroyed by antibiotics.

 

[Brew12]

Although I hate the analogy because aquariums are far from sterile, is the boy in the bubble with no immune system healthier than the one playing outside that catches the occasional cold?

Too many distractions.. I realized I never finished this thought so rather than edit it in I'll finish it here.

If the boy with the cold is sick, can he be healthier than the boy who isn't? It's a tough argument to make. I feel that if you look at the bigger picture, it is the boy with the occasional cold that is actually healthier than the one isolated from pathogens despite having occasional symptoms.

 

[Victoria M]

it seems that a marine hobbyist needs to be a pharmacist, specialized veterinarian and a bit of a chemist. It is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Foothill Corals]

it seems that a marine hobbyist needs to be a pharmacist, specialized veterinarian and a bit of a chemist. It is not for the feint of heart.

You left out a Biologist, Carpenter, Electrician, Plumber ooh and lets through in IT also.

 

[Forsaken77]

I am in the camp that it's better to err on the side of caution, especially when other fish can contract whatever it may be. I can understand observation QT for a few weeks, but to just dump a new fish in an established tank is just reckless.

Fish nowadays have more diseases than ever. If you just temp acclimate and dump it in your tank, you're SERIOUSLY asking for trouble and playing Russian Roulette every time you do it. It's luck, really.

We constantly see members here saying that they never QT'd any fish and their tank was fine. That is UNTIL they got a carrier/infected fish that eventually came along and wiped out most of their livestock. Now they sing a different tune. Because you DO NOT KNOW if a healthy looking fish is infected.

A fish can be infected in the wild and easily live. Once you put that fish in a small, enclosed ecosystem, that changes everything and puts all the other occupants at risk as well.

 

[Stigigemla]

Reading the whole thread now I see that there is some misunderstandings.
At the start of the thread Lasse wrote that the white stringy poop after import was because the fish was starved for a few days before the transport.
Some other showed examples of white stringy poop connected to internal parasites .

Where is the contradiction?

New imported fish are only getting 1/3 or less of normal food the first time by me. That is not scientificially based. Its just because I have done fasting myself. No sound person will break a fast with a good steak. (Just dreaming about it) We take it easy eating just a small meal first. I have found that the fishes too fare much better this way. I dont care much about how the fishes looks when I unpack. I look at them after a few hours when I feed the first time. Some wrasses are jet lagged for a week and tend to sleep now and then during the day. Other fishes take that week before they start to look after food.

 

[Lasse]

internal parasites are indicated by white, stringy poo, which is described in a myriad of scientific articles and journals as

My bold. I'm sorry but I must have missed this myriad of scientific articles he has mentioned. Can you please repost the scientific links?

However, I have cited some articles there Diplomomad flagelate infection shows - together with other symptoms - a white stringy poop. And once again - I do not deny that this type of stringy white poop can indicate this but I say that this indication together with that the fish I eating is not an indication of Diplomomad infection. And there is only in Diplomomad infections there it is scientifically shown as an indication. The symptom is not mentioned in other internal parasitic infections.

Why can't a steady eating fish do not have this type of stringy white poops? Eating food produce leftover - what we call poop when it comes out in the other end. The stringy white part is only like a thin, thin tread - containing no organic waste from the digest food. If it not comes out in the other end - it most stuck somewhere in the digestive track. Stomach full - not eating. The tiny stringy white poop is a sign that there is no organic waste that will come out - the fish has not eat or can't eat. However No eating fish and white stringy poop can indicate a Diplomomad infection and can be treated the way it is described in the Fish Base link.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

it seems that a marine hobbyist needs to be a pharmacist, specialized veterinarian and a bit of a chemist. It is not for the faint of heart.

You left out a Biologist, Carpenter, Electrician, Plumber ooh and lets through in IT also.

I strongly disagree - the best reefers I know is those that use their own heads, valuate information together with their own observations and use patience, do not punch (yea I mean punch - not press ) the panic botton and use common sense. The worst? IMO - the reefers what without using their own heads slavishly following advises from people like me It is wise to take advises but in this hobby with living ecosystem (bad or good) it is impossible to give 100 % right advises. But patience, no rush, not using the sledgehammer to often and use your common sense are generally good advises

Sincerely Lasse

 

[EmdeReef]

While I don’t like doing this, below is one, long fecal casts are associated with parasites along with other symptoms (which In totality must not be ignored). There’s more but I’d waste too much time going trough my paper journals as this debate will yield nothing positive for the hobby.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2006/75/d075p037.pdf

What I don’t appreciate in threads like this is that science is merely used to prove someone’s preconceived notion and advance an agenda. In this case it’s the long standing negative stance to fish treatment and quarantine... basically the debate has 2 sides: 1) some people have magical water that neutralizes all fish ailments and they can throw in any fish without problems - but they can’t quite provide repeatable protocols; 2) repeatable, albeit imperfect, treatment protocols rooted in our imperfect knowledge of microbiology and pathology.

In the end everyone will make a choice and do their best to care for their pets... for those who try 1 and have problems, the #reefsquad is always around in the fish disease treatment forum

We can keep posting scientific articles all day long, and there will basically never be any progress or middle ground in this thread or other similar threads. Beliefs are too powerful for any science to counter.

 

[Lasse]

This is where my biggest issue is: if starvation is the liklier cause of white stringy feces than internal parasites, and starvation beforeshipping is a standard practice, why aren't a greater percentage of fish showing up with white stringy feces?

I have no idea where you get your fish from - I can only argue from my experiences with direct imported SW fish from three different countries. In these imports there is more a rule than an exception with white stringy poop. And we have never ever use metro on this fish. After a day or two with sparley feeding they show up normal poop. And I talk about 20 to 30 000 fish during around 15 years. We have had fishes that not start to eat but never ever had disease outbreak on other fishes because of this. Diplomona infections is very contagious and my friend have losed many cichlids this way and know this disease, symptoms and treatment in his barebone.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Thales]

While I don’t like doing this, below is one, long fecal casts are associated with parasites along with other symptoms (which In totality must not be ignored). There’s more but I’d waste too much time going trough my paper journals as this debate will yield nothing positive for the hobby.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2006/75/d075p037.pdf

What I don’t appreciate in threads like this is that science is merely used to prove someone’s preconceived notion and advance an agenda. In this case it’s the long standing negative stance to fish treatment and quarantine... basically the debate has 2 sides: 1) some people have magical water that neutralizes all fish ailments and they can throw in any fish without problems - but they can’t quite provide repeatable protocols; 2) repeatable, albeit imperfect, treatment protocols rooted in our imperfect knowledge of microbiology and pathology.

In the end everyone will make a choice and do their best to care for their pets... for those who try 1 and have problems, the #reefsquad is always around in the fish disease treatment forum

We can keep posting scientific articles all day long, and there will basically never be any progress or middle ground in this thread or other similar threads. Beliefs are too powerful for any science to counter.

I think most people are in the middle ground, they just stay away from discussions like this.

 

[Lasse]

Do you read my post at all @EmdeReef? Have I ever in this thread said that I deny stringy white poop among other symptom according to Diplomona infections? The only thing I have stated from the first line in this thread that a stringy white poop not automatically mean internal parasites. I have also said that eating newly imported fish and stringy white poop is not an indication of Diplomona infection. I have a huge experiences of Diplomona infections among freshwater fish and all of these occasions include stop eating before the white stringy poops was seen.

And please - I do not insult you with having a hidden agenda - do not do that against me either. That's not common here at R2R and especially not among squad members.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[DSC reef]

While I don’t like doing this, below is one, long fecal casts are associated with parasites along with other symptoms (which In totality must not be ignored). There’s more but I’d waste too much time going trough my paper journals as this debate will yield nothing positive for the hobby.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2006/75/d075p037.pdf

What I don’t appreciate in threads like this is that science is merely used to prove someone’s preconceived notion and advance an agenda. In this case it’s the long standing negative stance to fish treatment and quarantine... basically the debate has 2 sides: 1) some people have magical water that neutralizes all fish ailments and they can throw in any fish without problems - but they can’t quite provide repeatable protocols; 2) repeatable, albeit imperfect, treatment protocols rooted in our imperfect knowledge of microbiology and pathology.

In the end everyone will make a choice and do their best to care for their pets... for those who try 1 and have problems, the #reefsquad is always around in the fish disease treatment forum

We can keep posting scientific articles all day long, and there will basically never be any progress or middle ground in this thread or other similar threads. Beliefs are too powerful for any science to counter.

So I assume you include all in the "you must QT everything and here's the science" camp as part of the hidden agenda you speak of or that would be biased on your part correct? I've never had a hidden agenda, I've always posted my experiences whether one agrees or not, that was my experience. You won't find this reefsquader in the disease forum as I've said before, don't have much experience with disease, must be our magic tank water that kept many fish thriving for many years.

 

[Paul Sands]

Do you read my post at all @EmdeReef?

I do not insult you with having a hidden agenda - do not do that against me either. That's not common here at R2R and especially not among squad members.

FYI: The way you addressed the other user would be considered by most people as disrespectful and insulting. You shouldn’t complain about things that you do yourself in the SAME POST.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't see how providing a medication, that doesn't harm the fish, is bad by trying to treat them before it's too late.

I've lost a tank full of fish due to one and don't plan to take that gamble again.

Different perspective... you as a person have white stringy poop. Doctor says, well it could be nothing or you could be dead within days. We have a medicine that won't affect you if the poop means nothing, but will clear it up if it is bad.

You going to pass?

I think @Lasse's point was that the drug DOES have long-term effects. I agree with the idea that white stringy poop (unless there is an obvious worm) does not mean that its a parasite. It MIGHT be - but I tend to agree with Lasse - that if the parasite is 'significant' there should be other symptoms as well. My guess is that no one has been sitting and watching their fish poop for 24 hours straight. BTW - I dont think infections should be 'ignored'. But - all of these medications (in humans) have potentially significant side effects. I mean - go to the doctor with a cold - he/she will likely say - its a virus - its too risky to prescribe an antibiotic - Right?

When I see people recommending antibiotics for gram positives, gram negatives, parasites (metro), worms (praziquantel) as a routine - I shudder. because its not good practice - and its not common sense.

The problem is IMHO - that individual fish keepers are practicing veterinary medicine - and self-prescribing 'everything' to kill 'one thing'. Its just that they don't know what that one thing is. This might be heresy but - my solution is - I do nothing. I dont follow every spot. I dont look at every wound, I dont do anything unless it's crystal clear what it is that its causing the problem. I dont treat for Ich - and then a potential bacterial infection and a potential fungal infection etc....

This is recommended all to often here - and with all due respect to those that are recommending it - I humbly disagree.