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My Tank Thread
Likewise my friendMy point is - never ever be sure on anythin
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Likewise my friendMy point is - never ever be sure on anythin
Sorry, but these two quotes are nowhere near the same thing. The first you were very clear, nothing prescribed unless there is a documented illness. The second indicates she’d be totally fine writing scrips for people she knows without any illness and generally OK treating some diseases prophylactically. If what she said was the second quote, then the first quote is a clear misrepresentation of what she actually said.
Im in the UK which is still unfortunately part of Europe as we speak! I just think its a bit wrong of some people to try to change what people are doing based on their own beliefs instead of keeping it to themselves and let people make their own decisions as i am sure most people do anyhow
Hey @Lasse
Can you review this thread when you get a chance?
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/black-storm-qt-trouble-need-help-asap.611132/#post-6150999
I'm curious as to what your opinion is? I think this is a good example of a fish that had stopped eating and was displaying symptoms of internal parasites. Then had a positive reaction to the medication. It made me think of this thread this am when she posted the update .
The suggested prophylactic uses of pharmaceuticals on fish in this thread, for example, have been compared with prophylactic application of heartworm medication in dogs.
These two uses of prophylactic medicine are not in the same category of science. Not even close.
I don't think most of us have a firm grip on the information in this article: (I know I did not)
Role of mucus layers in gut infection and inflammation
I'm no vet but it sounds like white stringy poops could simply be nothing more than an empty bowel trying to work... shedding its mucus layer in the process.
I would suggest that anyone facing stringy white poops who is feeling more eager than "doing nothing/waiting" should perhaps take samples and look at them under a microscope as a first logical step. Proceed from there.
It would certainly be interesting to see a catalog slowly build up of folks taking photos of stringy white poops under microscope's to see the actual results of positives and negatives where parasites are and are not identified. (More interesting than speculation about it anyway.)
I've not heard any of the thread's detractors encourage anything like that. Instead they seem to encourage what amounts to "shoot first ask questions later" bravado with pharmaceuticals.
The suggested prophylactic uses of pharmaceuticals on fish in this thread, for example, have been compared with prophylactic application of heartworm medication in dogs.
These two uses of prophylactic medicine are not in the same category of science. Not even close.
One important difference is that science can change its mind. Check out this document on heartworms to see the history of that disease and where things are currently going with it: https://www.aaha.org/graphics/original/professional/resources/other resources/ceva_heartwormbooklet.pdf
Lots of good science going on there.
@Lasse correct me if necessary, but I think this may at least in part have been the point of this thread:
Is there any science at all behind "white stringy poops " as they are known in our hobby?
At least this far into the thread the answer appears to be no.
We have no idea at all what organism we're targeting, or even if there is one at all.
Hey @Lasse
Can you review this thread when you get a chance?
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/black-storm-qt-trouble-need-help-asap.611132/#post-6150999
I'm curious as to what your opinion is? I think this is a good example of a fish that had stopped eating and was displaying symptoms of internal parasites. Then had a positive reaction to the medication. It made me think of this thread this am when she posted the update .
For the sake of the discussion do we really know how bad metronidazole is for the fish?Im not @Lasse - but - doesnt it come down to this: what is the sensitivity and specificity of 'stringy white poop' in making a diagnosis? The same with any other 'diagnostic test'... In this case is observing 'stringy white poop'.
My guess - sometimes (no clue as to how often) this signifies a pathogen. My guess is (again no clue as to how often) this signifies a pathogen that will kill the fish. Other times this is normal
The question - what is the risk of treating a fish with no disease and stringy poop (a false positive) vs the risk of not treating a fish with active disease and stringy poop (true positive) vs not treating a fish with 'normal poop' that actually has disease (a false negative) vs empirically treating every fish (i.e. normal poop with no disease)?
The problem - no one knows these numbers - so we can debate back and forth and back and forth - and it all comes down to prophylactic treatment vs active treatment of disease... IMHO - personally - stringy white poop can happen without any disease present - and thus should not be a key marker of deciding when or not to treat a fish...
For the sake of the discussion do we really know how bad metronidazole is for the fish?
I can tell you I have never had white stringy poop that was put under a scope that didn't have parasites present. So for me that is a no brainier to treat white stringy poop with med soaked food.
How much risk is really involved with using metro?
How much risk is involved "waiting it out"? Not medicating. I know it's not realistic for most hobbyists to take a sample of fecal matter put it on a slide and under a microscope. Although good enough microscopes to do so aren't all that expensive in relation to everything else we buy in this hobby.
I'm just not sold that waiting makes any more sense than medicating. I can't wrap my head around it. Not to mention a fish that has white stringy poop that is still eating, can easily be medicated. It's been mentioned in this thread to wait until another symptom like a pinched stomach or a fish stopped eating as a second signal of internal parasites.
At the point the fish stops eating IME it's near impossible to bring them back from that. Plus you can't get the meds to the gut where you need them to be effective.
At the point the fish stops eating IME it's near impossible to bring them back from that. Plus you can't get the meds to the gut where you need them to be effective.
That´s not so strange because these flagellates is a part of the normal flora in the gut - you can se them i a drop of water too. You can see a lot of anaerobic bacteria too - that also can be dangerous for the fish - but normally is good for the fish.I can tell you I have never had white stringy poop that was put under a scope that didn't have parasites present.
Digestion is a funny proces. In most animals (including humans) it is not really efficient because they can always get access to a new meal with limited effort/danger so they basically strip the food the eat only from the nutrients easily accessible). Most of those animals also have an active digestive tract (where muscle movement/peristaltic movenent moves food relatively fast through the digestive tract). The corn goes in and corn comes out kind of digestion no matter how much you eat and how long it has been since you had your last meal before you ate corn.
Fish are animals that seem to have had to evolve a different strategy because access to a new meal isn't as reliable/predictable for them. They use displacement presure (new food pushing old food backwards) and much slower than peristaltic movement ciliate movement to transport food in the digestive tract. Their strategy is to keep food as long as possible in the digestive tract to extract the maximum amount of nutrients unless there is already new food available. This means for fish the amount of time food can and will stay in the digestive tract is far more variable and this time effect also has an effect on what the end results looks like.
Most of my fish get white stringy poop from time to time simply because periodically I feed them much less than both in quantity and frequency sometimes even nothing at all. Liver fattening resulting from unnaturial overfeeding and the health issues related to it are seen in a lot in pets including fish.
My friend, it's very true. Out of the several hundred fish I have handled if it had white stringy poop, was eating when symptoms arose and then stopped. They didn't start back up again. I don't know what else you want me to say, I just speak from my personal experience, just like you do. I can't speak from experience on freshwater fish as it's been over 30 years since I've had a FW fish.This is not true -at all - FW fish is treated against this diplomonad infections with the drug in the water. It reach the stomach (and the whole body) because these drugs is fat soluble - it means that they will seek themselves to the part in the environment which contain most fat - it penetrate into the fish from the water and bioaccumulate and bioconcentrate in the fish up to therapeutic concentrations and beyond - if no WC is done. I have brought back many, many FW fish from this disease without that they have eat. Further on because these drugs are fat soluble – they are very difficult for fish to breakdown and get rid of especially for SW fish because they nearly not pee (the normal transport pathway for these types of compounds – after they have been hydrolysed).
If I wore a skirt we'd all be in trouble!Firstly - there are other options than metronidazole (fembendazole for example as a bath - or metronidazole as a bath)
Second - I agree completely - its unknown. @Lasse thinks that treating with Metronidazole has long term risks - I dont know if this is the case.
Third. to me the key question relates to how often do fish have 'white stringy poop' actually have a disease that needs to be treated... IMHO - there needs to be something more than just that - only because - I have seen it intermittently in fish in my tank that have not been exposed to any5ing.... Realize - its just my opinion. Frankly - I always like it when you join the conversation - because of your experience.... That is also not just blowing sunshine up your skirt (is that appropriate for this forum)? rather your experience
I feel like you guys who don't QT are always really quick to criticize all of us who do treat prophylactically etc.
It certainly goes both ways. I get it.I don't criticize anyone who has a QT and I don't QT, never have. I know there are many practices and ways to have a successful reef tank and thriving fish. However I will criticize those who quarintine that give endless amounts of grief to those who don't and blame everything that has gone wrong in their tank is due to not having a quarintine. I've read plenty of threads where the "QT" clan can criticize just as much. Sorry I don't have any write ups but all I can do is share my experiences as that's what I believe this forum is about, coming together and helping eachother and giving different ideas as pathways to success. I think both sides have a lot to offer IMO