aspartic acid and glutumic acid as a carbon source

[marke]

I know I have read that people have dosed these as a carbon source. Whats your thoughts? An good articles? If its a carbon source why is it the primary ingredient in most amino acid supplements? Is it a coral food or a bacteria food? Maybe both? Maybe aminos are feeding bacteria which in turn feed corals. Not making a statement, just asking for others opinions and research. Thanks in advance for responding!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know I have read that people have dosed these as a carbon source. Whats your thoughts? An good articles? If its a carbon source why is it the primary ingredient in most amino acid supplements? Is it a coral food or a bacteria food? Maybe both? Maybe aminos are feeding bacteria which in turn feed corals. Not making a statement, just asking for others opinions and research. Thanks in advance for responding!

I certainly will act as a carbon source for bacteria, but it also may be providing amino acids needed by corals that are in short supply. I mentioned them briefly in the article of mine from 13 years ago:

Aquarium Chemistry: The Chemical and Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

from it:

Regardless of the mechanisms involved, the need for these organics in calcification is easily verified. Allemand et al have studied the role of such materials in Stylophora pistillata. Interestingly, they find that inhibitors of protein synthesis reduce the rate of calcification considerably. For example, reducing protein synthesis by 60-85% reduced calcification by 50%. A similar result was found by inhibiting glycoprotein synthesis. These results did not come about because of reduced metabolism, but rather by specific effects of reduced protein and glycoprotein synthesis. The most important conclusion in their paper may be that the rate of skeletogenesis may be more limited by the rate of biosynthesis and exocytosis of organic matrix proteins rather than by calcium deposition.

Interestingly, the apparently large need for a particular amino acid (aspartic acid) to synthesize these proteins is satisfied by external sources, not by either the coral itself or the zooxanthellae. For this reason, it might be interesting to see what added aspartic acid does to calcification rates in reef tanks.

 

[marke]

Thank you Randy. I have read that article many times. Question. Can I add the aspartic acid to the vinager I am dosing. That is will it degrade or change in any way? I know your views on blending carbon sources to diversify bacteria. But if I can mix aspartic and maybe glutamic acid in my gallon of vinager I could be feeding corals and maybe diversifying bacteria strains. Does this make sense or am I off.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can mix those into vinegar, but I'm not sure how much will dissolve at that low pH..

 

[marke]

Thank you Randy! Couple more question on this.
1---- if kalk is added to the vinager to adjust ph. Will it make it easier for aspartic to mix with vinager? Or might this change the composition or life of the aspartic?

2---- as for a carbon source like the vinager I presently use. Is aspartic and glutamic acid as good of a carbon source? What if I switched from vinager to a solution of aspartic acid as my carbon source. Or again maybe doing a combined carbon source using vinager and aspartic and a little kalk if needed for ph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you add enough calcium hydroxide to bring the pH above 7, then it should be more soluble. The calcium will bind to the aspartate, but once added to the tank, it won't matter.

I see no reason to think the aspartate and glutamate won't drive bacterial growth very well. It does provide nitrogen, however, so won't have quite as large of a nitrate reducing effect. It is possible it won't have any.

 

[watchguy123]

@marke just curious what if anything that you have learned about aspartic and glutamate acid in the last few months. I tried to find aspartic acid to purchase but could not find a source.

 

[JimWelsh]

When I googled "aspartic acid for sale", this was the second link: http://www.amazon.com/Pure-D-Aspartic-Powder-Pharma-Grade/dp/B006HWHUUI.

Regarding a source for glutamic acid, wouldn't MSG work?

 

[watchguy123]

oops

 

[watchguy123]

When I googled "aspartic acid for sale", this was the second link: http://www.amazon.com/Pure-D-Aspartic-Powder-Pharma-Grade/dp/B006HWHUUI.

Regarding a source for glutamic acid, wouldn't MSG work?

Somehow I got it in my head that I want L-aspartic acid and not the D-aspartic acid

 

[marke]

@marke just curious what if anything that you have learned about aspartic and glutamate acid in the last few months. I tried to find aspartic acid to purchase but could not find a source.

I have learned a ton! First let me say I have been through a bunch of research. Its hard to find anyone funding this type of study for the aquarium trade. Some info is available, and it all points to the potential use of aminos especially aspartic. The real research gets done by hobbyist like us who are willing to try new things and share results with others in order to get to some kind of consensus. So first the disclaimers----I am not a scientist doing controlled studies with multiple tanks that have everything the same except for amino squirts. Hence for the scientist out there please open your mind to the untested being tested before you shoot it down. Maybe even offer some help in how to further the homegrown study. Lastly I need to disclose that I own MECoral a manufacturer of pharmaceutical grade aquarium additives. Hence my opinions (not results) may be financially motivated. I hope I can show that this is not the purpose of my writing. My hope is we together via research and testing can determine what is happening.

OK Disclaimers Done!

What Have I done and Seen

I have source USP (Pharma grade) Aspartic and Glutamic acid. This was attained from a manufacturer that uses these in protein shakes and OTC pill supplements. The first thing I learned is they do not dissolve in water. So as Randy stated the PH needs to be increased to properly mix. Kalk did not work for me. I use sodium carbonate. My ratio is 20 grams of aspartic and 18 gr of glutamic to 30 gr of carbonate. Very reactive in 500 ml of rodi. I added this to the vinegar I was dosing all along. I dose every hour. Aprox 35 ml of this solution per day in my 200 gl display, heavy sps, also dosing 2part, kalk with top off. I have seen extraordinary polyp extension in all my sps and chalices and montis. Growth tips have improved as well as coloration. In other words corals are very happy. I have been doing this for 3 months now. In the meantime I have been giving away samples to my friends. In 99% of the cases everyone has seen the same results. Many people did not want the vinegar as they felt their nitrates were already to low and did not want to carbon dose. Typical for low nutrient sps systems. So I made a few batches without vinegar. Very concentrated. People were seeing results 10 minutes after putting small quantity of MEAmino in their system. At RAP Cali a month ago, I asked a store who had 3 frag tanks if they would try the aminos in one of their tanks? 1o minutes and 15 drops latter they took my bottle and put some in all their tanks. They are still begging for more. I advise people to use it 15 min before feeding the tank. Gets the polyps out and feeding so they can capture more food in the 3 minutes they have to get it. Glutamic acid from what I have read is an appetite stimulant. For Humans, Animals, and Corals. This is where I beleive the polyp extension comes from. The Aspartic is the most consumed of all aminos by corals. It is a protein used in calcification. Yes corals can get and make some aminos from the water and your food; however, I think I if they dont have to work as hard to process aminos from food, and its in the water column they will take it in and get fat and happy.

The Concerns

In one case of about 50 sample I got a report back that nitrates went up. After furthur discussion it seems this individual was fighting a nitrate problem before using meamino. So we know aminos can increase nitrates as its a protein and hence a nitrate, but it has no po4. So for low nutrient tanks this is a food source that adds nitrate but no po4. Dont many people have zero nitrate and .03-.05 po4. This is the best way to increase nitrates without increasing po4. Win win here. This is not for the high nutrient system as we may just be adding more nutrient via nitrates.

second issue shelf life

I have found if left in a warm place for a few months it can develop mold or bacteria in the solution. Maybe eating and diluting the aminos? Looking for advice and ideas here? My solution so far is to add a small amount of vinegar as a preservative. Low ph wonders. Need some time to see results. Also I am suggesting putting in the fridge as low temp retards growth along with low PH.

The unkown? What should we expect longterm? Can we be doing something that could cause pain latter? Fat Happy corals cant run? I am not sure but as we use it and test it, and the sample size keeps growing we will know for sure.

Hope this perks some interest

 

[watchguy123]

Remarkable. It is always scary trying something new, particularly on a tank loaded with sps. Kudos for your efforts.

 

[zzzdiver]

Very interesting - following along

 

[Maximus]

Can you store Me Amino acids in a dosing container? Does it need to be refrigerated?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you store Me Amino acids in a dosing container? Does it need to be refrigerated?

Dissolved? Unless there are preservatives added to it, amino acid solution have the potential to grow bacterial. Does it come as a solid or liquid?

 

[marke]

Can you store Me Amino acids in a dosing container? Does it need to be refrigerated?

ME Polyp Extender Aminos can be stored and used from a dosing container. ME Aminos come only in a liquid form. As Randy mentioned aminos need a preservative or the liquid solution will grow bacteria. Which preservative a manufacturer uses is as important as the type of aminos added. Some preservatives may add phosphates, others use an alcohol or similar. This can cause cyano outbreaks. ME uses vinegar as a preservative. This also adds a SMALL amount of carbon to our systems. That most of us need. Vinegar has the least side effects and is the most natural of all the preservatives available. As for shelf life, ME aminos are good for one year. No refrigeration is needed.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

seaweed works just as well;

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

seaweed works just as well;

To do what? You mean growing macroalgae to reduce nutrients?

IMO, a big advantage of organic carbon dosing is that the bacteria become food for filter feeders. I could see doig ngfor that reason alone, even if you have to dose nitrate to maintain growth.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

seaweed has high amounts of both aspartic and glutamic acid

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

seaweed has high amounts of both aspartic and glutamic acid

But do those amino acids get released to the water when you feed those seaweeds?