Can fish be itchy?
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Nasabeau
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HIGH - Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Stickies
My Current QT Process Ratios for Dosing Copper Power Uronema - Eradicate or Ignore? Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites! PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER Medications to keep on hand Fallow periods: Going Fishless Difficult Fish to QT guide Ich eradication vs. Ich...www.reef2reef.com
I prefer copper power and pick-up a Hanna copper tester, this will all be in a quarantine tank of course not dosed to the display
Okay.... I think I'm going crazy, please help me out here: the fish are completely fine... I woke up, the gramma was hiding and would not feed, the tang was covered in white spots, and the CB had a white spot. This was Classic White spot ich... I have spent all day researching my options, pouring over threads, trying to figure out what to do. I just went to look at my fish and.... they are all completely fine. There is no spot on the CBA, the Tang is completely spot free, and the gramma is out and about digging through the sand.... I am at a loss... Any ideas what is going on? I swear to god I'm not crazy... I wish I'd taken a picture of the tang...
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Nasabeau
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@Jay Hemdal, tell me more about this flukes theory? This is the second time you mentioned it about my CB and I am starting to think you might really be on to something. I’ve attached some pictures and a video of my CB.
Edit: sorry, I know the tank looks funky, I just fed
Edit: sorry, I know the tank looks funky, I just fed
Jay Hemdal
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Sorry - I couldn't get the video to play. In a basic sense if a fish is scratching, not breathing rapidly and does not have grains of salt like spots, we tend to think of flukes. If the fish has grains of salt type spots, breathing regularly, it is usually the start of ich. If the fish is breathing at a high rate, and has a dustiness to its body, we think of velvet. There are other diseases of course, but those are the common three.
Now, the spots coming and going on your fish - that is pretty common when ich first gets started; all of the parasites are about the same age and they are all on the same cycle. They can drop off the fish at once, then they reproduce and their offspring come back onto the fish in a day or two, in greater numbers. That's what you need to watch out for.
As far as treatment - copper for ich and praziquantel for flukes are the standards. Copper cannot be treated with invertebrates in the tank, but prazi often can. Stay away from "reef safe" medications, they are often ineffective.
Jay
Now, the spots coming and going on your fish - that is pretty common when ich first gets started; all of the parasites are about the same age and they are all on the same cycle. They can drop off the fish at once, then they reproduce and their offspring come back onto the fish in a day or two, in greater numbers. That's what you need to watch out for.
As far as treatment - copper for ich and praziquantel for flukes are the standards. Copper cannot be treated with invertebrates in the tank, but prazi often can. Stay away from "reef safe" medications, they are often ineffective.
Jay
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Nasabeau
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so, I guess here is my issue. The CB is not breathing rapidly and has never had "grains of salt" type spots, just the larger whiteish patch that when I looked up flukes matches pretty well, along with itching. The tang is not breathing rapidly, and had grains of salt like spots for maybe a few hours tops, except they didn't look raised. I have snails and a hermit in the tank, but no other inverts, it seems to me that the best course of action if I suspect either of these is move those guys over to a small bowl and dose my display tank, then monitor and return them when copper returns to normal ranges. I guess I have a few questions: 1. Is it possible the tang has ich and the CB has flukes at the same time? I mean, I know its Possible But I'd like your opinion on whether expecting that is realistic. 2. is this something that I can realistically wait-and-see on? What kind of time-frame am I looking at between where I am and losing fish. I want to do my best for these guys but right now I just feel like I don't know enough to make the right choice, is it possible I wait to see if the spots show back up on the tang before treating, or will it be too late at that point? 3. if I do dose my main display after removing the inverts, I know this will be a very loosely educated guess, but what is the likelihood I am never successful with corals in that tank? will the copper always go back down, or is there a realistic chance that its something I'll have to live with until I'm able to change out all the water, substrate, and rocks. and I suppose my last question is 4. If I decide to try and go into ich management instead of eradication, is that realistically enough to be a good fish husband to these guys, or am I essentially resigning to killing them?
Edit: I do want to be clear that I am not taking any of this as medical advice, and I know the burden ultimately falls to me. but you have really been there for me as I start this adventure in reefing, and your opinion is one I've grown to deeply value in this field. If you don't feel comfortable answering any of those that's fine, I don't blame you (and anyone else is welcome to jump in with their opinions as well). I'd just really appreciate your thoughts here. To be honest I am pretty scared for my fish right now, I feel terrible for ignoring the advice to always always quarantine, I feel like I'm in way over my head at this point and am just hoping for a hand. right now I feel like my fish need a much better reefer than I am to help them through this.
Edit 2: if you think it would help I can try uploading the video to youtube and linking it, its only 6 seconds long, and I took it because the CB seemed to be swimming kind of funny on the same side as the lesion, holding his fin against his body, and the video kind of got a better look at the lesion than most of the pictures. I wish I had a better camera.
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Can't say with certainty what that is... leaning more towards ich if it cleared and came back a couple of days later. Could be velvet or maybe even brook (hope not). I'd start a QT setup ASAP, and get some medication on hand with appropriate test kits.
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Nasabeau
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here is my problem with that: yes, for future fish I need a QT, but I don't think I'm adding any more for quite some time. as far as setting one up for the purposes of treating whatever is going on, I have 6 fish, 2 of which are fairly large, moving all the fish over for treatment would mean I would need a tank almost the size of my display (especially since for marine ich they would have to be out of the DT till February to eradicate it from my DT), which is completely infeasible for me right now. like, I have a 75 gallon, I could maybe get away with a 55 for how long I am going to have to move those guys based on my stock right now... right now it seems like the only realistic thing I can do is remove the inverts to a small tank and treat the main tank. you best believe I am going to setup a 20-30 gallon tank to QT any new fish from here on out...
If its ich, you need to let the DT go fallow (no fish in tank) for 74 days. Treat fish with copper for 30 days in QT and then change water (can't return fish to DT until end of fallow period). I know it sucks, but the alternative is watching your fish die.
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Nasabeau
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The problem is that keeping a tomini tang, a coral beauty angelfish, a royal gramma, a yellow tail damsel, and 2 clowns in anything smaller than a 75 gallon for 70+ days would result in them dying anyway either from unmanageable levels of ammonia or them being too cramped and killing each other off. I'm thinking if I don't want to kill my fish I will probably need to dose them in their main tank, since not only can I not afford to setup and maintain a second 75 gallon tank, I live in an 800 sqft apartment where we barely have room for the one tank that size. I am thinking I need to resign myself to the fact I will need to remove my snails and my crab and dose the main tank and accept the consequences of maybe not being able to have corals in this tank down the line, or at least having to wait a lot longer
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Nasabeau
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It didn't go away and come back a few days later. the CB has had some problems just for the past week or so kind of moving around his body on the head and gills. the only thing that's really gone away was the tang had spots on him this morning and they were completely gone a few hours later
borillion
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Sorry I've never dealt with this before so I don't have a lot of input but for example you can get a really cheap large tank from Petco If you're worried about your display tank don't want a bunch of PVC facing in different directions and different sizes so they have places to hide? Then treat all of them at once?
Maybe some other people have more input on this and experience!
Maybe some other people have more input on this and experience!
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Nasabeau
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Its a thought, the problem is I have no place to put a second 75 gallon tank, and even super cheap a 75 gallon is going to be a couple hundred bucks... Thank you for your help! don't apologize for not having experience with it! I'm happy you haven't had to deal with this!! at this point though, I am thinking I am going to try and get a better handle on whether or not this is ich or flukes, and then remove the snails and hermit if necessary and then dose the main tank and live with the consequences of not following proper QT before... I like fish more than I like coral, and it will get back to a state where I can put in coral eventually, so I'm not devastated.Sorry I've never dealt with this before so I don't have a lot of input but for example you can get a really cheap large tank from Petco If you're worried about your display tank don't want a bunch of PVC facing in different directions and different sizes so they have places to hide? Then treat all of them at once?
Maybe some other people have more input on this and experience!
cboylan1606
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@Nasabeau dont wait to long to formulate your plan. I just lost all but 1 wrasse in less than a week dude to what I can only foresee as velvet. I’m new to this hobby and actually saw the signs early but didn’t take action fast enough I now have a empty tank set up and a 29 gallon qt with the wrasse in. If you even remotely feel it’s ich or flukes you need to start treatment sooner than later
You can get a 40 breeder from Petco for $50 and set it up on the floor if you have to (with a heater and HOB filter) should be all you need. Once you put copper in your DT, it's likely never going to support coral or invertebrates again.
Have you tried a fresh water dip to check for flukes? It's pretty quick and easy.
Best of luck!
Have you tried a fresh water dip to check for flukes? It's pretty quick and easy.
Best of luck!
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Nasabeau
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Good to know. my LFS isn't even open Sundays so not much I could do today. right now my plan is to get medications tomorrow and begin treatment for ich, since everything I'm reading says ich will kill the fish faster than flukes
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Nasabeau
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2 and a half months of a 40 gallon breeder on the floor is not going to support my bio load... the tang needs a minimum of 50 gallons on its own, not to mention I will have no sand or rock to act as biofilters. if I was QTing for like a couple weeks I might see that as swingable... maybe its time to rehome my freshies and QT in that tank? maybe I just have to accept that I'm not going to be able to put corals in this DT?
No, I have no idea what that is or how to do it
Suit yourself, but I'm telling you I've done it in 40 gallons with HOB filter and a heater (plus a half dozen PVC elbows). I have a Tomini Tang, Coral Beauty Angel, Royal Grama, Six Line Wrasse, Yellow Corris Wrasse, Bicolor Blenny, and a few Orange Tail Damsels. Get an ammonia alert placard, feed lightly and change water as needed to maintain water quality.
Do a quick search on freshwater dip for marine fish and read a little. It takes about 15 minutes and you will be able to see if any flukes fall off (do it in a white bucket so it's easier to see if anything parasites fall to the bottom).
Do a quick search on freshwater dip for marine fish and read a little. It takes about 15 minutes and you will be able to see if any flukes fall off (do it in a white bucket so it's easier to see if anything parasites fall to the bottom).
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Nasabeau
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my wife and I discussed it and because of space concerns we have decided to rehome our freshies and move them to that tank. it is still only 40 gallon, but has a nice canister filter heater and air stone, as well as proper substrate and rock. part of the problem is having it on the floor is just asking for the dog or cat to get into it. I will look up fresh water dip and try to do that tonight... who knows, maybe its flukes and I can just treat the whole tank
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