Copper Power after Stress Guard?

[Brice|F4llen]

Hi,

I need advice on using copper after using Stress Guard.

The bottle specifies that Stress Guard is compatible with all medications other than those who are copper based. The website also states that the active ingredient in Stress Guard dissipates after 24 hours.

I took delivery of 2 Royal Grammas, a Tail Spot Blenny, and a Banggai Cardinal on Friday. One of the RGs had what looked to be a mild to moderate scratch on it's side as well as some moderate damage to the tail. To help promote healing for the wound, I dosed the QT tank with Stress Guard. It's been 48h since dosing Stress Guard and everybody is eating.

I'd like to start slowly ramping up copper tomorrow afternoon. I'm wondering if it would be safe to start ramping up copper as is, or if I need to do some percentage water change seeing as how the tank was dosed with Stress Guard for the scratch on the RG.

Does anybody have experience dosing copper after the 24h dissipation window for the active ingredients in Seachem's Stress Guard?

Advice is appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

I would follow the directions - if you want to use copper, believe what the company says - do a 100% water change - and you're all good

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi,

I need advice on using copper after using Stress Guard.

The bottle specifies that Stress Guard is compatible with all medications other than those who are copper based. The website also states that the active ingredient in Stress Guard dissipates after 24 hours.

I took delivery of 2 Royal Grammas, a Tail Spot Blenny, and a Banggai Cardinal on Friday. One of the RGs had what looked to be a mild to moderate scratch on it's side as well as some moderate damage to the tail. To help promote healing for the wound, I dosed the QT tank with Stress Guard. It's been 48h since dosing Stress Guard and everybody is eating.

I'd like to start slowly ramping up copper tomorrow afternoon. I'm wondering if it would be safe to start ramping up copper as is, or if I need to do some percentage water change seeing as how the tank was dosed with Stress Guard for the scratch on the RG.

Does anybody have experience dosing copper after the 24h dissipation window for the active ingredients in Seachem's Stress Guard?

Advice is appreciated.

Thanks!

Stress guard is nothing more than a water conditioner with aloe and does not reduce stress as the name implies. It should be safe with copper but can break up bonders in copper. Are you using copper- ionic form or chelated form in coppersafe?
Regarding copper, its for protozoan and not for scratch injuries. You want to use seachem Kanaplex or maracyn 2. As for ramping, with grammas, go to treatment level 2.25 and DO nOT Ramp as Increasing copper level slowly can allow the disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible.

 

[Brice|F4llen]

Stress guard is nothing more than a water conditioner with aloe and does not reduce stress as the name implies. It should be safe with copper but can break up bonders in copper. Are you using copper- ionic form or chelated form in coppersafe?
Regarding copper, its for protozoan and not for scratch injuries. You want to use seachem Kanaplex or maracyn 2. As for ramping, with grammas, go to treatment level 2.25 and DO nOT Ramp as Increasing copper level slowly can allow the disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible.

I use Coper Power which is chelated.

I've heard that RG and Blennies can be sensitive to copper, so I was under the impression that ramping up slowly was the best practice for those species.

The scratch/tail is pretty mild. I don't think it's seriously threatening to the RG or anything. Was just trying to promote healing before beginning my medicated QT routine. I didn't realize that Stress Guard wasn't a good treatment.

I follow Jay's post for QT protocol. Copper first, then Prazi.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I use Coper Power which is chelated.

I've heard that RG and Blennies can be sensitive to copper, so I was under the impression that ramping up slowly was the best practice for those species.

The scratch/tail is pretty mild. I don't think it's seriously threatening to the RG or anything. Was just trying to promote healing before beginning my medicated QT routine. I didn't realize that Stress Guard wasn't a good treatment.

I follow Jay's post for QT protocol. Copper first, then Prazi.

No - never ramp up copper slowly. That is old advice, based on ionic copper/citric acid products. You do need to dose it accurately though - and I find that is best done with dosing 50%, waiting a few hours, testing the level and then dosing a proportional amount to reach 100%.

Amine based copper products are slow to work. We've had people here lose fish from ramping up too slowly.

Here is the thing about reducing agents and ammonia removers, when used with amine-based copper products. They have NOT been fully tested! We know that you aren't supposed to use Prime and Cupramine, but what about Amquel and Coppersafe? It has not been fully tested.

I hear "my fish were sensitive to coppersafe". I've dosed thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of fish with Coppersafe and never have any issues. I also do not use these additives. What if those are the wild card here? If even some of the copper/amine bonds are broken, the free copper released would be much more toxic......food for thought.

Jay

 

[Brice|F4llen]

No - never ramp up copper slowly. That is old advice, based on ionic copper/citric acid products. You do need to dose it accurately though - and I find that is best done with dosing 50%, waiting a few hours, testing the level and then dosing a proportional amount to reach 100%.

Amine based copper products are slow to work. We've had people here lose fish from ramping up too slowly.

Here is the thing about reducing agents and ammonia removers, when used with amine-based copper products. They have NOT been fully tested! We know that you aren't supposed to use Prime and Cupramine, but what about Amquel and Coppersafe? It has not been fully tested.

I hear "my fish were sensitive to coppersafe". I've dosed thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of fish with Coppersafe and never have any issues. I also do not use these additives. What if those are the wild card here? If even some of the copper/amine bonds are broken, the free copper released would be much more toxic......food for thought.

Jay

Fair enough.

Thanks for the input.

I'll proceed with a 90% water change and begin copper power immediately. 50%, then another 50% a few hours later as described.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Fair enough.

Thanks for the input.

I'll proceed with a 90% water change and begin copper power immediately. 50%, then another 50% a few hours later as described.

I checked the ingredients, and the glutaral is the issue - it binds with amines. I would be afraid it will break the copier amine bonds.

Jay

 

[Brice|F4llen]

I checked the ingredients, and the glutaral is the issue - it binds with amines. I would be afraid it will break the copier amine bonds.

Jay

@Jay Hemdal,

I've been at around 2.4 ppm copper for approximately 30 hours now

Last night one of the RG died with the mouth wide open. Extremely weird. I noticed some flashing from that RG the day prior near the gill area.

I'm suspecting gill flukes.

I'm also noticing pretty regular flashing from the TS Blenny, on his side and belly, and just noticed the RG flash on a rock near the gill area again.

FW dip? General Cure plus extra aeration? Any thoughts?

Everybody felt well enough to eat. They're also very active. Always out and about and pestering one and other

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal,

I've been at around 2.4 ppm copper for approximately 30 hours now

Last night one of the RG died with the mouth wide open. Extremely weird. I noticed some flashing from that RG the day prior near the gill area.

I'm suspecting gill flukes.

I'm also noticing pretty regular flashing from the TS Blenny, on his side and belly, and just noticed the RG flash on a rock near the gill area again.

FW dip? General Cure plus extra aeration? Any thoughts?

Everybody felt well enough to eat. They're also very active. Always out and about and pestering one and other

This is why remote fish disease diagnose is so tough - I just noticed you got TWO royal grammas. While these fish live in loose aggregations in the wild, two will often fight in a small quarantine systems. Is the one that died the one with the previous damage? Did it get any worse? Does the other gramma have intact fins?

RG often have gill flukes. You can dose Prazipro and copper at the same time (I do try to avoid doing that if possible though because it is stressful). If you do that, dose twice, 8 days apart, with a 30% water change before the second treatment (dose copper in the replacement water) and use really good aeration from an air stone.

Jay

 

[Brice|F4llen]

This is why remote fish disease diagnose is so tough - I just noticed you got TWO royal grammas. While these fish live in loose aggregations in the wild, two will often fight in a small quarantine systems. Is the one that died the one with the previous damage? Did it get any worse? Does the other gramma have intact fins?

RG often have gill flukes. You can dose Prazipro and copper at the same time (I do try to avoid doing that if possible though because it is stressful). If you do that, dose twice, 8 days apart, with a 30% water change before the second treatment (dose copper in the replacement water) and use really good aeration from an air stone.

Jay

The one with the minor scratch is the one who died. It did not appear to be any worse, nor did the fins appear to be damaged. It's certainly possible that the cause of death was aggression, but I think it's low likelihood because the one who survived is dramatically smaller than the one who died. I'd say the one who died is nearly double the size of the survivor, and I suspect it could have defended itself against a smaller RG if things got serious.

They're quarantined in a 20g with plenty of elbows and 3 large pieces of Marco's Reef Saver. I know that any sort of rock is discouraged in your qt protocol, but I wanted to make sure the RG and Blenny had plenty of hiding places. I have no intention for using those rocks outside of QT and I test regularly for Copper using the Hanna HR Checker should the rock begin absorbing the copper from the water.

I have Prazipro and General Cure on hand. Which do you prefer? I've been told that when mixing, General Cure is recommended because it's less likely to cause a bloom. But I'll defer to your judgement as the expert.

Thanks,

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The one with the minor scratch is the one who died. It did not appear to be any worse, nor did the fins appear to be damaged. It's certainly possible that the cause of death was aggression, but I think it's low likelihood because the one who survived is dramatically smaller than the one who died. I'd say the one who died is nearly double the size of the survivor, and I suspect it could have defended itself against a smaller RG if things got serious.

They're quarantined in a 20g with plenty of elbows and 3 large pieces of Marco's Reef Saver. I know that any sort of rock is discouraged in your qt protocol, but I wanted to make sure the RG and Blenny had plenty of hiding places. I have no intention for using those rocks outside of QT and I test regularly for Copper using the Hanna HR Checker should the rock begin absorbing the copper from the water.

I have Prazipro and General Cure on hand. Which do you prefer? I've been told that when mixing, General Cure is recommended because it's less likely to cause a bloom. But I'll defer to your judgement as the expert.

Thanks,

Using some rock is fine since you are aware of the issue and are testing for copper loss.

I agree that General Cure is less likely to produce a bacterial bloom. Still be sure there is good aeration. Also, change their dosing from twice in 48 hours to twice in 8 days (to catch any hatching fluke eggs missed by the first dose). The metronidazole in it is a bit of a wild card, but I know people have dosed it with copper with no apparent issues.

Jay