Cost Of Equipment Is Out Of Hand

[User1]

China has come to lower the costs for reefers as in many areas and products. Pumps, light and dosing are products we now can trust. Hope soon to se aquarium control computers at fair prices. The western brands are for sure over priceing and I would to if I could. Hope this levels out now. The explosion of e-shoping cuts away most of the supply chain costs. Hope to se it happen soon for this hobby to.

You do not need China or any other lower wage world to lower costs. If you want a low cost controller there are several open source products that work equal to the two large brands. There are plenty of DIY Arduino boards out there and if you are not a DIY person then there is the Reef Angel which is pre-built. I used one close to 10 years but only recently took it off line for my Apex. Personally speaking some of the custom libraries the community came up with such as geo location, tides, and storms (I get some say a gimmick) blow GHL and Apex out of the water - the functionality isn't there. Then there are the Pi route which is the smaller raspberry route. Never owned one so cannot comment but would wager it is similar to Arduino.

I get the utopia vibe in the thread about cost and what not but out sourcing or using lower wage countries to buy cheaper products isn't the solution. IP theft is real and it is similar to downloading a song or movie that you didn't pay for. That download is revenue lost to both artist and production company. You want to talk about medical and pharmaceuticals and I'll ask a simple question. How much money does it take to bring a drug to the market in the US?

It takes blood, sweat, and tears to launch a product, new drug, or launch a 2 ton heavy thing into low earth orbit. Just putting it into perspective.

 

[Why-Me]

This thread is still going?
LOL

There is no right or wrong answer there are 3 different price options for almost everything in reefing, buy what you want let others buy what they want without putting them down. Bye y'all.
Unwatching this thread

 

[VR28man]

I agree, I honestly do not know why they do not. But if it risks penalties upon his lfs I can see the reasoning.

In every industry i am aware of, MAPs are used to protect small vendors, and the manufacturer, from big-volume vendors and distributors, especially of the wal-mart or Amazon scale.

If you manufacture something, of course your few big volume customers are most important. Resellers or distributors that absorb a lot of your production capacity inevitably get preferential treatment and wholesale prices. This can easily lead to them discouting your product and undermining small vendors.

• If - a simplified example - you sell some item to small mom and pop stores (maybe 100 units a year per store; say 100 customers us-wide, wholesale is half MAP; total volume 10,000 per year via mom and pop) and also to Wallyworld (1000+ stores, selling at least a dozen or so a day per store; total unit volume 3+ million), Wallyworld essentially owns your business and has a huge ability to dictate the terms of sale; it can basically dictate its purchase and sale price (often retailing below what’s economical for you to sell wholesale to the mom and pop store). In such a case, MAP and the ability to sustain it in customers' mind gives the small store a chance to make a sale (as well as a somewhat-truthful excuse to not undercut its profit margin, at your expense), and gives you some non-dependance on wal-mart.

In the real world, price wars among big retailers can lead to a pricing race to the bottom, destruction of small retailers ability to carry the product, and ruination of a brand.

A few examples i’ve seen from various hobbies:

Glock I’m told ruthlessly enforces MAP prices, as well as its (much lower than civilian) individual officer prices. In their industry it’s very easy for a few police distributors and their authorized DC area (largest law enforcement presence in the world by a huge margin) law enforcement shop to count for a hugely disproportionate amount of sales. This is made worse by the occasional police force switching their issue sidearm and dumping the surplus on the market. I’m told in recent years as the oversaturated market for their product has cooled, they have become more ruthless in enforcing MAP and law enforcement discounts. Again, to preserve their brand and retail networks.

Similar applies to scuba gear suppliers: some well located shops with major contracts buy more in a month from, say, scubapro, than the average small dive shop can sell in two years. Though that tropical shop may not choose to try to sell below MAP, they may sell to leisurepro for much less than the MAP, boosting their volume and further lowering their wholesale price, to the point that it can be cheaper for the Boise shop to buy from leisurepro than buy wholesale. I am told that a few times scubapro traced serial numbers of stuff on leisurepro, but the source shop basically ignored them and scubapro couldn’t do much about it because of the source shop’s volume. (I assume the source was one of those big Florida shops that sells and rents all brands, and could easily just drop Scubapro and push Aqualung, etc. if it wanted to)

Cameras have a similar phenomenon: MAP keeps prices in your (now almost nonexistent) local camera store, Best Buy, and online behemoths Adorama and B&H roughly the same. Some of these vendors sometimes throw in freebies with (i.e. discount) a purchase when they want to move more inventory, to get around MAP. (the freebies are generally generic stuff or generic stuff sold under their own brand to reduce their costs and get around further manufacturer restrictions). Canon and Nikon are companies with global distributors and pricing; it's therefore fairly common for distributors in Hong Kong, Southeast Asia, or Taiwan to take advantage of lower MAPs in those areas as well as exchange rate differences to give the same "grey market" camera to B&H, again at a sometimes sizable discount. Nikon shot itself in the foot by refusing to service cameras not sold from US vendors and by restricting third party service; this helps the MAP at the cost of angering the customer (since it's the same camera from the same production facility, the only reason they refuse is because it wasn't purchased from the right distribution channel. They might shoot themselves further in the foot by making up bogus excuses).

As an aside, local camera stores don't exist now in a large part due to precipitously declining camera sales volumes since their IIRC 2013 peak, as well as a massive glut of previous generation cameras (overproduction) in both current retail channels as well as the used market that are not much worse than the top-of-the-line. The camera companies sometimes try to dump several-year-old inventory at lower-than-new prices, but fight with the fact that the used prices for anyone in the know are waaay lower. If the camera companies can't raise profit margins (which they are doing desperately now), they will find themselves in a vicious circle of a pricing and profit race to the bottom.



Anyway, MAP is done to protect the manufacturer and small vendor from pricing games by distributors and large vendors. The alternative is eventual commoditization of a product, and IMO a lack of technical innovation unless the industry it always chasing new things the way PCs were in the 90s, and smartphones were in the early 10s.

China has come to lower the costs for reefers as in many areas and products. Pumps, light and dosing are products we now can trust. Hope soon to see aquarium control computers at fair prices.

Doubt that; beyond simple controls (like you see on the jebao) the aquarium controller is entirely software based (all you need for hardware is a raspberry pi) and beating neptune on that will require an enormous amount of skilled software developers, which I'm pretty sure won't be available from China for the aquarium market, especially when the objective is just to "be cheaper than neptune".


And as far as Ecotech, their magnet design is apparently pretty hard to duplicate: while Jebao has come out with a Maxspect Gyre clone (assuming that it's not just a Gyre coming from the same factor with enough cheap mods to prevent a lawsuit, like Hydor won against Jebao), no one is trying the magnet design.

Some people like the Ecotech's wires outside the tank. I personally don't care about that; the software/programability and communicability of the pumps are excellent and well worth the money to me. (the interface, and the reeflink, leave much to be desired IME).

 

[VR28man]

You do not need China or any other lower wage world to lower costs. If you want a low cost controller there are several open source products that work equal to the two large brands. There are plenty of DIY Arduino boards out there and if you are not a DIY person then there is the Reef Angel which is pre-built. I used one close to 10 years but only recently took it off line for my Apex. Personally speaking some of the custom libraries the community came up with such as geo location, tides, and storms (I get some say a gimmick) blow GHL and Apex out of the water - the functionality isn't there. Then there are the Pi route which is the smaller raspberry route. Never owned one so cannot comment but would wager it is similar to Arduino.

I get the utopia vibe in the thread about cost and what not but out sourcing or using lower wage countries to buy cheaper products isn't the solution. IP theft is real and it is similar to downloading a song or movie that you didn't pay for. That download is revenue lost to both artist and production company. You want to talk about medical and pharmaceuticals and I'll ask a simple question. How much money does it take to bring a drug to the market in the US?

It takes blood, sweat, and tears to launch a product, new drug, or launch a 2 ton heavy thing into low earth orbit. Just putting it into perspective.

Agreed on the second part of this post.

However, I looked into reef angel, and from my understanding not only is the quality in things like USB ports sometimes lacking (since it's a one-man show trying to come in under the Neptune's price), but for the same reason manufacture support is spotty, and it has only basic viability for someone who can't manage/troubleshoot a computer and program C. Further, I understand that there's no interface for Maxpect, Ecotech/Vortech products; it can only work with products that basically run on a 0-10v connection.

That automatically makes it a niche product.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@VR28man,
Good run down on MAP. In the aquarium industry the problem is that large online and brick and mortar stores are able to strong arm the manufacturer for better pricing so the local store will be stuck with investment and inventory it can't sell. A very visible example is the dollar a gallon sale from Petco and Petsmart. The manufacturer is owned by the distributor and as such they cheat the LFS each and every day by selling to the mass mechandiser at a much lower cost than the LFS. They even support the loss leader sales at prices they never offer to the local store.

The only way a local store can survive is to throw the sales representative from Central out the door and refuse to carry any of their offered products. Then they need to find and stock deep those items of better quality that will never get carried by Central. They then need to tell the manufacturer they buy from that if they sell any of their product to Central or the mass merchandise market they will have to come and pick up their inventory and give the local store a check. Yes they need a contract to protect themselves from the preditory practices of Central and their manufacturer chain of supply. Local stores should specialize in only higher quality items not available through the mass merchandise/distribution chain. That means no local store should ever sell Aqueon or Marineland ever. Same goes for lights, lamps, filters, gravel, plants, inverts and fish. If it is tied to Central the local store is foolish to buy it or stock it. Central has aggressively collapsed the manufacturer distribution chain over the last 20 years making it even harder for local stores to compete if there is a mass merchandiser in their local market.

It will be interesting to see if the Internet store model survives the current effort for each state to collect taxes from them into the various states and local tax entity's. At last count there were something like 30,000 different tax districts in the United States. The logistics of tracking and paying all those taxes could break the Internet store in the near future.

 

[KMG]

Many emotional arguments. Fact remains that Chinese-produced products are pushing over prices. Maybe not mostly because of low salaries, but because they are content with lower profits. I know several manufacturing companies in Europe that manufacture both cheaper and better. The production volumes are brought back. I don't buy thath it's only to mingle a controler out of an Arduino. Few can pull it of. Wishful thinking?
Patent infringement is just low. No one wins on theft. It is most miserable and embarrassing. On the other hand, some very big companies started out thath way...

 

[joshwaggs]

There are some people in here that have offered some really valuable insight. Not to say others opinions weren’t valuable; but to those that owned businesses, especially those in the aquarium business, thank you. I learned a metric buttload. To me, this is the value of a thread like this. So far, I’ve seen replies from store owners and operators, people in distribution, people in engineering, people in product management, and most impressively someone that actually tried to provide affordable aquarium products. To the latter, that was probably one of the most eye opening comments I read and completely counter-intuitive. Thank you for sharing that experience.

 

[Ashley Kekua]

The Ecotech price increase is tariffs. Quite a few products from China are receiving tariffs or will in the near future. The clothing industry is starting to get hit pretty hard with them

i thought made in USA Ecotech brag about that? maybe im mistake?

 

[Ashley Kekua]

It is definitely price gouging. Can someone please explain to me why the cost of Radion G4 Pro's just went up $50.00? I have gone the way of expensive lighting with a product that was supposed to be upgradable for the next 100 years (LOL). It is a Vertex Illumina SR360. What a waste of money. Am I going to go the way for Radion's… yes. But not G4 Pro's. My G3's non-pro's grew everything I wanted, with not issues. Ecotech to me has some terrible customer service. I have an MP60wQD that is getting noisy. Called the company... send it in, and oh by the way give me your credit card number in case it's not under warranty. Which I haven't, and won't. When the dang thing craps the bed, then I will move on to another company. I am a techy by trade. So, of course I want all the tech I could get for my system. Step in Neptune Systems. Another crappy customer service company. But hey, you get what you pay for correct? Not so much!!! I've gone thru several of their products only to say "You got me". Jebao, been that route to, I've owned a few RW20's. Seems like the controllers crap out at the 1yr mark. Burned so much by this hobby, and why do I stay in it? It's like staying in a bad relationship, you hope it can only get better. And it 98% of the time doesn't. I'm just rambling and frustrated. I've been in this hobby for a long time, and have owned everything from a 29G cube, to my current 545Gallon Display and a 600Gallon Display. At times I almost wish they would crash so I can just give up on this money pit. It's worse than owning a boat.

Back to the Original question... Why did the price of Radion Gen4 Pro's just increase in MAP pricing $50.00 starting Feb 1st?

I offer comfort to you! Smile! You are handsome!

 

[marlinmon]

Lol this thread... I mean.. geez you don't HAVE to buy anything. There are cheaper hobbies, like basketball. If you can make a controller cheaper and better than what's out there, then make it, I'll buy it. Until then...

 

[rtparty]

i thought made in USA Ecotech brag about that? maybe im mistake?

I believe they are assembled in the USA and many parts may be made here. However, some parts come from China, specifically magnets. Therefore, any Chinese parts are now more expensive.

 

[Ashley Kekua]

I believe they are assembled in the USA and many parts may be made here. However, some parts come from China, specifically magnets. Therefore, any Chinese parts are now more expensive.

Ah I see that now! Thanks

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I believe they are assembled in the USA and many parts may be made here. However, some parts come from China, specifically magnets. Therefore, any Chinese parts are now more expensive.

I believe most things made in the USA, can have up to 60% materials that originates in the USA. Bummer .

 

[Paul B]

The "Majano Wand" that I invented is made in Florida but some of the parts are made in China. That drove me crazy as I am a Veteran and try very hard not to buy anything from China. But they don't make some things here no matter how much you want to pay. The regulated power supply that the thing needs is not built here. I tried very hard to get one made in the US but it is just not available.

The manufacturing here isn't to bad but if I had it made in China or India the price would only be a couple of dollars less because it has to be packaged and shipped. The parts are the same price no matter what I do and the packaging and shipping would be the same.

I think the thing is expensive but the profit is very low as there are a bunch of middle men (or Ladies) so the price is set by that.
If I had to live on what I make on Majano Wands and my book I would have to move to Tim Buc Too and sell puca beads. Thank God I make a good living by being a Male Model.

 

[ca1ore]

I disagree with the fundamental premise of this thread. Yes, the premium end of this hobby is expensive, but that’s true for every hobby. Below that, there are plenty of affordable equipment choices; much of it comparable to historical pricing (when taking inflation into account). OK, if you want the apex, you’re going to pay. Fortunately it’s not critical to a successful tank.

 

[Panky]

I offer comfort to you! Smile! You are handsome!

ty

 

[Panky]

I believe they are assembled in the USA and many parts may be made here. However, some parts come from China, specifically magnets. Therefore, any Chinese parts are now more expensive.

But what part of Radion's are made in China? They don't have magnets!

 

[rtparty]

But what part of Radion's are made in China? They don't have magnets!

The LEDs? The circuit boards? Probably the fans? Power supply?

 

[alton]

The LEDs? The circuit boards? Probably the fans? Power supply?

RT you probably hit the nail on the head. Power Supply's especially, I believe Tunze has to now use chinese made power supply's. Congress needs to wake up and create a floating tariff. Whatever your's is, so is our's. If the tariff from the US to China is 30% then back at you, if you raise it so then we do also. To Europe if the final number of taxes is 100% then so will ours. I had a friend try to send another friend in South Africa a rifle scope valued at $500, he had to pay $1,000 in taxes to receive it. We are so far behind in tariff's and why every country in the world now owns the US. Sorry I got off topic but in a way they go hand in hand. Orphek which a US based company with there product made out of this country try's to sell in Europe, the price they are asking for doubles. I still remember the conversation here on R2R.

 

[rtparty]

RT you probably hit the nail on the head. Power Supply's especially, I believe Tunze has to now use chinese made power supply's. Congress needs to wake up and create a floating tariff. Whatever your's is, so is our's. If the tariff from the US to China is 30% then back at you, if you raise it so then we do also. To Europe if the final number of taxes is 100% then so will ours. I had a friend try to send another friend in South Africa a rifle scope valued at $500, he had to pay $1,000 in taxes to receive it. We are so far behind in tariff's and why every country in the world now owns the US. Sorry I got off topic but in a way they go hand in hand. Orphek which a US based company with there product made out of this country try's to sell in Europe, the price they are asking for doubles. I still remember the conversation here on R2R.

Literally, any part that has Chinese anything will cost more IF the tariffs have hit that part.

I'll leave the political stuff out of this since it can turn a thread sour. However, I don't disagree [emoji6]