Could you not use kessils in every. single. build. Please?

[Rakie]

If you guys setup 100 tanks at least 90 of them are gonna have kessil. I'm very glad you used a quality light for the growth project, and it really made me realize how much you use the same light over, and over, and over, and over, in almost every single build series.

It would be pretty nice to see you guys use a WIDE range of lighting. Not just kessil, not just radion, not just ATI. Use everything you have. It would have been VERY nice to see one of the ULM tanks grown with the Orphek fixture, or Giesemann Verve, or the ATI LED / Powermodule.

 

[Amoo]

Much love for you @Rakie as you know, but at the same time, I do understand why they do it.

For example in the video about coral growth they did yesterday about coral; growth in higher parameters, most of the stuff is donated. So IMO, if certain manufacturers, Kessil, Ecotech, AI...etc whoever, gives them more product to work with or is willing to give them products for these tests at close to cost, then I can understand and am okay with it. There is a huge difference between opening 1 Ophek then testing it and giving it away, vs opening 8 and taking them out of inventory and eating the cost if the company isn't willing to help with the tests they run.

2 cents.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Much love for you @Rakie as you know, but at the same time, I do understand why they do it.

For example in the video about coral growth they did yesterday about coral; growth in higher parameters, most of the stuff is donated. So IMO, if certain manufacturers, Kessil, Ecotech, AI...etc whoever, gives them more product to work with or is willing to give them products for these tests at close to cost, then I can understand and am okay with it. There is a huge difference between opening 1 Ophek then testing it and giving it away, vs opening 8 and taking them out of inventory and eating the cost if the company isn't willing to help with the tests they run.

2 cents.

Agreed, sort of a work with what you got senario. And based off history, these lights have proven results, so why would they not continue to use them?

 

[Rakie]

Agreed, sort of a work with what you got senario. And based off history, these lights have proven results, so why would they not continue to use them?

Based off history, as much as I know you love them, I don't know anybody whose kept a long term successful tank with kessils alone. They are the most regretted purchase I've ever personally seen among people I personally know. Those who do well with kessil typically have to supplement their lighting. I don't see that with T5, Radions, AI, or any other manufacturer. I'm hoping the Kessil X will fix this issue.

Walk into any major vendors shop, which I can do in my area, you will not find Kessils. Two Guys Coral didn't use them, CaliKid doesn't use them, Reef Raft USA doesn't use them, Reef Lounge doesn't use them, Aqua SD doesn't use them, Battle Corals doesn't use them... Their clout is born from them being used at trade shows, where they offer free lighting to vendors. Outside of coral shows, where again, they offer free lighting as a marketing tool, none of the professional growers really use them.

Additionally, I believe they chose the lights they did for the growth experiment because they are the best option. But even then, even if they used nothing but THE BEST light at all times, I would find issue with it. Even though I don't care for kessil, the problem isn't using the kessil -- It's using nothing BUT the kessil. It's not a good way to show off other brands. And I'd have a hard time believing other companies wouldn't want their products being used unless it's in an X vs Y grow out format. Then it could make a company look bad due to lacking performance.

How many people buy the Giesemann verve? I'd wager not many... I haven't seen one in a single build thread by chance. I've only seen two orphek build threads. I've not seen any of the ATI LED fixtures being used (Full ATI LED, not powermodule). This is a great chance to show off different fixtures. And I for one would like more data on different lighting sources.

 

[tweeter]

Based off history, as much as I know you love them, I don't know anybody whose kept a long term successful tank with kessils alone. They are the most regretted purchase I've ever personally seen among people I personally know. Those who do well with kessil typically have to supplement their lighting. I don't see that with T5, Radions, AI, or any other manufacturer. I'm hoping the Kessil X will fix this issue.

Walk into any major vendors shop, which I can do in my area, you will not find Kessils. Two Guys Coral didn't use them, CaliKid doesn't use them, Reef Raft USA doesn't use them, Reef Lounge doesn't use them, Aqua SD doesn't use them, Battle Corals doesn't use them... Their clout is born from them being used at trade shows, where they offer free lighting to vendors. Outside of coral shows, where again, they offer free lighting as a marketing tool, none of the professional growers really use them.

Additionally, I believe they chose the lights they did for the growth experiment because they are the best option. But even then, even if they used nothing but THE BEST light at all times, I would find issue with it. Even though I don't care for kessil, the problem isn't using the kessil -- It's using nothing BUT the kessil. It's not a good way to show off other brands. And I'd have a hard time believing other companies wouldn't want their products being used unless it's in an X vs Y grow out format. Then it could make a company look bad due to lacking performance.

How many people buy the Giesemann verve? I'd wager not many... I haven't seen one in a single build thread by chance. I've only seen two orphek build threads. I've not seen any of the ATI LED fixtures being used (Full ATI LED, not powermodule). This is a great chance to show off different fixtures. And I for one would like more data on different lighting sources.

That is not true. I have Kessils alone on my tank and have had the same lights for 5 years with great success. I have a mixed reef, with lots of sps. Just because you do about hear about the success of many other kessil users, does not mean that there are none. We just don't post all the time!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Based off history, as much as I know you love them, I don't know anybody whose kept a long term successful tank with kessils alone. They are the most regretted purchase I've ever personally seen among people I personally know. Those who do well with kessil typically have to supplement their lighting. I don't see that with T5, Radions, AI, or any other manufacturer. I'm hoping the Kessil X will fix this issue.

Walk into any major vendors shop, which I can do in my area, you will not find Kessils. Two Guys Coral didn't use them, CaliKid doesn't use them, Reef Raft USA doesn't use them, Reef Lounge doesn't use them, Aqua SD doesn't use them, Battle Corals doesn't use them... Their clout is born from them being used at trade shows, where they offer free lighting to vendors. Outside of coral shows, where again, they offer free lighting as a marketing tool, none of the professional growers really use them.

Additionally, I believe they chose the lights they did for the growth experiment because they are the best option. But even then, even if they used nothing but THE BEST light at all times, I would find issue with it. Even though I don't care for kessil, the problem isn't using the kessil -- It's using nothing BUT the kessil. It's not a good way to show off other brands. And I'd have a hard time believing other companies wouldn't want their products being used unless it's in an X vs Y grow out format. Then it could make a company look bad due to lacking performance.

How many people buy the Giesemann verve? I'd wager not many... I haven't seen one in a single build thread by chance. I've only seen two orphek build threads. I've not seen any of the ATI LED fixtures being used (Full ATI LED, not powermodule). This is a great chance to show off different fixtures. And I for one would like more data on different lighting sources.

They are in buisness, not science.

As good as they are , when they are quoted as science in a thread , well...

https://reefs.com/magazine/skeptical-reefkeeping-i/

 

[Crabs McJones]

Based off history, as much as I know you love them, I don't know anybody whose kept a long term successful tank with kessils alone. They are the most regretted purchase I've ever personally seen among people I personally know. Those who do well with kessil typically have to supplement their lighting. I don't see that with T5, Radions, AI, or any other manufacturer. I'm hoping the Kessil X will fix this issue.

Walk into any major vendors shop, which I can do in my area, you will not find Kessils. Two Guys Coral didn't use them, CaliKid doesn't use them, Reef Raft USA doesn't use them, Reef Lounge doesn't use them, Aqua SD doesn't use them, Battle Corals doesn't use them... Their clout is born from them being used at trade shows, where they offer free lighting to vendors. Outside of coral shows, where again, they offer free lighting as a marketing tool, none of the professional growers really use them.

Additionally, I believe they chose the lights they did for the growth experiment because they are the best option. But even then, even if they used nothing but THE BEST light at all times, I would find issue with it. Even though I don't care for kessil, the problem isn't using the kessil -- It's using nothing BUT the kessil. It's not a good way to show off other brands. And I'd have a hard time believing other companies wouldn't want their products being used unless it's in an X vs Y grow out format. Then it could make a company look bad due to lacking performance.

How many people buy the Giesemann verve? I'd wager not many... I haven't seen one in a single build thread by chance. I've only seen two orphek build threads. I've not seen any of the ATI LED fixtures being used (Full ATI LED, not powermodule). This is a great chance to show off different fixtures. And I for one would like more data on different lighting sources.

But the initial discussion was why they use them on everything, and the response was because kessil gives them lights to use. Why open up inventory that you loose money on when a company is good enough to give you lights to use in your series.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

But the initial discussion was why they use them on everything, and the response was because kessil gives them lights to use. Why open up inventory that you loose money on when a company is good enough to give you lights to use in your series.

Is the information they provide then motivated by sales or science.
Watch the the video it’s scientific, but they use free lights and have no controll tank , so it’s not science , it’s promotion. And that’s fine it feeds the family but...
it’s a fair question by the op.

 

[Rakie]

Is the information they provide then motivated by sales or science.
Watch the the video it’s scientific, but they use free lights and have no controll tank , so it’s not science , it’s promotion. And that’s fine it feeds the family but...
it’s a fair question by the op.

Exactly what I'm getting at.

Also, we all understand it's a business.. but from a business standpoint, wouldn't it also be advantageous of them to test OTHER lighting sources? If not, then they may as well stop carrying any light that isn't AI, Radion, or Kessil, because that's about 90% of what people use from the LED lineup.

And @Crabs Mcjones the initial discussion is NOT about if kessil is good or not. It was about using more than one type of lighting. The fact I don't believe in kessils is besides the point.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Is the information they provide then motivated by sales or science.
Watch the the video it’s scientific, but they use free lights and have no controll tank , so it’s not science , it’s promotion. And that’s fine it feeds the family but...
it’s a fair question by the op.

Very true. I agree it is a fair question, just trying to answer it to the best of my abilities

 

[Crabs McJones]

Exactly what I'm getting at.

Also, we all understand it's a business.. but from a business standpoint, wouldn't it also be advantageous of them to test OTHER lighting sources? If not, then they may as well stop carrying any light that isn't AI, Radion, or Kessil, because that's about 90% of what people use from the LED lineup.

And @Crabs Mcjones the initial discussion is NOT about if kessil is good or not. It was about using more than one type of lighting. The fact I don't believe in kessils is besides the point.

I know, I understand that and i've already referenced that. And my answer was because kessil gives brs lights to use in the series instead of brs spending money on their own inventory. So is it a bias choice? Most likely. Should they use other sources, absolutely.

 

[Amoo]

Should they use other sources, absolutely.

I actually disagree. For starters, you have to consider the time that BRS is paying their employees to make videos, when they could be doing other things. Secondly you have to consider the cost. As I mentioned already, that fact that they have been willing to open a box, write it off and test it then give it away is more than most other companies are doing.

So is this good marketing? I think so, and apparently so does the BRS financial department. That said they're also doing a service to the community.

So if I'm a business owner, and I'm doing this and I have the option to run these experiments with top end equipment that vendors are willing to donate or discount, vs. lower cost options or options which manufacturers aren't willing to discount or donate, I'm using the cheaper 100 times out of 100 and I think every single one of us would make the same decision.

So while I get the point @Rakie is making, if X company is willing to donate or deeply discount their products for me to use in these series, even if it's the same 5 or so companies, I'm going to keep turning to them.

We already have BRSTV Investigates where they DO what you are asking and do test every product and give us things like spectral graphs...etc. For the longer term stuff that they're not opening 1 or 2 then giving them away, I can't agree that they SHOULD be using other sources. I wouldn't be willing to eat that money and I think to expect them to is asking a little much.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I know, I understand that and i've already referenced that. And my answer was because kessil gives brs lights to use in the series instead of brs spending money on their own inventory. So is it a bias choice? Most likely. Should they use other sources, absolutely.

One would assume with a wholesale account and advertising budget it would be a moot point.

That is not true. I have Kessils alone on my tank and have had the same lights for 5 years with great success. I have a mixed reef, with lots of sps. Just because you do about hear about the success of many other kessil users, does not mean that there are none. We just don't post all the time!

My favorite kessil tank is a five footer with six or seven a160. Acro dom.
Yea , they work.

 

[Rakie]

So is this good marketing? I think so, and apparently so does the BRS financial department. That said they're also doing a service to the community.

They also generate income from youtube for this. Not very much at this stage, but once you're at 1 million subs you're making six figures. They are nowhere near 1 million subscribers, but a lot of people don't know how deep the YouTube money is.

They could very easily be making a few grand a year of their channel as is. As it grows, by featuring new stuff, and new studies, it could grow into a legit source of income within itself.

 

[Amoo]

They also generate income from youtube for this. Not very much at this stage, but once you're at 1 million subs you're making six figures. They are nowhere near 1 million subscribers, but a lot of people don't know how deep the YouTube money is.

They could very easily be making a few grand a year of their channel as is. As it grows, by featuring new stuff, and new studies, it could grow into a legit source of income within itself.

I'm well aware

 

[Rakie]

I'm well aware

I figured YOU would be. At their current subscriber level I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least making them a few thousand. Branching out will only increase their subscriber amount.. YT alone could easily generate enough money eventually to cover all the experiments we could dream of.

This is on top of their advertisement budget.

Again -- Me not being a kessil fan is besides the point. I would be unhappy if they only used Radions too, or T5, etc etc. But every series seems to start with one fundament cornerstone; They slap Kessils on it. As a viewer, reefkeeper, and someone whose very interested in lighting -- This is a faux pas, and becoming quite inexcusable.

 

[Amoo]

Their videos are averaging in the neighborhood of 25-45K views, so they're definitely not killing it. Subs is kind of irrelevant in the youtube world. It's all about views. I'd be willing to bet if they tried to fund what they are doing with youtube revenue they have (especially when you consider the age of the channel), they'd be way in the red.

EDIT: I'm talking just in the time they are paying the employees for the videos, let alone the products.

 

[Amoo]

Again -- Me not being a kessil fan is besides the point. I would be unhappy if they only used Radions too, or T5, etc etc. But every series seems to start with one fundament cornerstone; They slap Kessils on it. As a viewer, reefkeeper, and someone whose very interested in lighting -- This is a faux pas, and becoming quite inexcusable.

I think bringing it up and making a point here in their forum is a good start, but I also thing, as Ryan asked this week, the onus is also on us to bug some of the other manufacturers *coughORPHEKcough* and others to get their products into the mix.

 

[Ryanbrs]

Their videos are averaging in the neighborhood of 25-45K views, so they're definitely not killing it. Subs is kind of irrelevant in the youtube world. It's all about views. I'd be willing to bet if they tried to fund what they are doing with youtube revenue they have (especially when you consider the age of the channel), they'd be way in the red.

EDIT: I'm talking just in the time they are paying the employees for the videos, let alone the products.

Just because I think a lot of people might find it interesting but totally unrelated to reefing. We get around 700k to a million views a month across all 700 videos. The income we receive from the ads on youtube is .... Drumroll, please ..... $1,500 a month
Helps pay a portion of the 5 person team here at BRSTV but a pretty small amount considering how many views it is.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Just because I think a lot of people might find it interesting but totally unrelated to reefing. We get around 700k to a million views a month across all 700 videos. The income we receive from the ads on youtube is .... Drumroll, please ..... $1,500 a month
Helps pay a portion of the 5 person team here at BRSTV but a pretty small amount considering how many views it is.

Let's not forget that's taxable income. So the actual net is much less than that $1,500. When you count the amount of hours it takes to produce and edit this stuff, as well as the cost of goods that BRS has to put into these episodes, there's no way they're making money on YouTube views.

This could become more in the future. As of right now though, it's not a lot. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with using Kessils exclusively in the BRS videos. If it keeps the videos coming, I'm all for it. If anything, using only Kessils might add a bit of control to the experiments in that they all have the same lighting.