Despite API reputation, the Chemicals in the test kits are actually good

Reefahholic

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yep. It's ideal for those purposes. Cheap, Liquids, scalable to small or large volumes, reliable linear color response to the things measured.

I don’t think there’s many test kit options for ammonia, nitrite, etc. API seemed to be one of the few the last time I checked. I only tested ammonia this last cycle. I know if the tank sits long enough with the right Bacteria and ammonia source it will cycle. So I try to avoid buying a lot of those test kits, but I was trying to see if Dr Tim’s method for fish-less cycling worked as fast as he said. If I remember correctly it took a little longer than I thought it would.
 

Red2143

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Which api tests can you create a reference and keep in the tube long term vs the color shifting over time? For example, I think nitrate gets darker over time?
 
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taricha

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Which api tests can you create a reference and keep in the tube long term vs the color shifting over time? For example, I think nitrate gets darker over time?
None of them. The final color product for all of these tests is unstable from one day to another. They all have unacceptably large changes long-term. Except for the pH indicator, that's pretty stable. But the pH in the sample itself could easily change so it wouldn't be a stable color either.
Really, the only solution that would work decently is to photograph the standards against a color card so that in the future you can photograph your sample against the same color card and have as good of a reference as possible short of using a colorimeter.
 

Jay Hemdal

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This topic is @Dan_P 's baby - I'm just running with it. Dan will even go further than I will and use some of the API kits that I won't mess with (NO3, PO4).

It's widely claimed that API tests can't be trusted and any values reported by API should be ignored until the hobbyist throws them in a trashcan and a more expensive test kit is purchased.
But when you measure the color response of these test kits to carefully made stock solutions of known concentration - you find that API kits perform exactly as they should in theory - forming color linearly proportional to the concentration.
I wanted to illustrate this by demonstrating the colorimetric performance of Total Ammonia, Nitrite, and High Range pH tests.

Here's API total ammonia test
API ammonia_micro.png


Tightly linear over the range [0 - 2ppm]. The reagent amounts and ratios are tweaked a bit from the API box instructions for the range and the volume that I want to work with, but all the reagents are API. And whatever box of reagents I grab the performance is the same.


Next is the Nitrite - NO2 test.
API NO2 micro.png

With the recipe I'm working with, it stops being perfectly linear around 1ppm NO2 and above, so I use this when working with samples between [0 - 0.7ppm]. Above 1ppm, it still gets darker pink, just not in a clean linear way (at this reagent ratio).

And finally, here's API high range pH.
The pH test is a color indicator that's phenol red or very similar - it responds very well over the entire plausible range of saltwater pH. Here's the absorbance spectrum of the indicator in saltwater from pH of less than 7.0 to above 8.6.
API_pH spectrum.jpg

The plot is showing the spectral data, but each of those colors is easily naked-eye distinguishable by comparison as well.

So if you do a ratio of the left peak and right peak absorbance and plot the log of that vs what a calibrated pH meter reads in the same solution you get this...
API pH calibration.png


The log of the absorbance ratio is tightly linear to what my calibrated pH meter gives - within 0.05 pH units. (This means pH can be measured by recording color and no probe/calibration solution required, which is convenient sometimes.)

In all these examples, the technical details are unimportant, or at least the topic for another thread. What matters is that in all cases the API reagents are doing exactly what you want a chemical reagent to do. They have a repeatable, easily distinguished color response that is linear to the concentration of what you want to measure.

Here's an absurd example to drive the point home about the gap between how low the trust is of API vs how consistent the performance actually is.

I found this in a box in my garage: From the Lot numbers and the copyright info on the box and printed inserts - it was made in 2003.
API_ammonia_03.jpg

So, how well does this 20yr old API ammonia kit work?
I used both API kits made 20 years apart to measure the same 0.0 and 1.0 ppm total ammonia saltwater solutions.
API_amm_03-23.jpg

Pic taken at around 10 minutes - colorimetric measurements were made at around 30 minutes and I was a little shocked to see both kits gave completely identical results. ( I expected that the chlorine solution in reagent 2 would have lost its potency, but I guess the bottle was well sealed ... for 20 years. lol)


So when we say API results are "trash" etc (and there are some nonsensical results from API tests posted), we should probably talk about what we mean by that, and why they might be bad - because the chemistry is solid.

So telling somebody to go use a different set of chemicals to do the same thing seems unlikely to give a better result if the chemicals weren't the problem in the first place, right?

Dr. Wellfish says "Your garbage test results aren't my fault." DocWellfish.jpg

[Disclaimer, I don't love all API kits: NO3 and PO4 have too much lot to lot variation - so I'll always opt for hanna / red sea there.]


I'm not sure if I replied, but I found that the API copper test kit is surprisingly accurate, when read on a spectrophotometer. I was having difficulty interpreting the color differences in the API test kit when measuring Coppersafe. I set up our Hach DR5000 and ran a standard curve. I could then measure Coppersafe accurately using the cheap API test kit as opposed to the Hanna, or high range Hach tests.

Jay
 
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taricha

taricha

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I'm not sure if I replied, but I found that the API copper test kit is surprisingly accurate, when read on a spectrophotometer. I was having difficulty interpreting the color differences in the API test kit when measuring Coppersafe. I set up our Hach DR5000 and ran a standard curve. I could then measure Coppersafe accurately using the cheap API test kit as opposed to the Hanna, or high range Hach tests.

Jay
That's a good call. I haven't messed with API copper, but the Hanna copper is sensitive to well below 0.1 PPM, so it makes sense that the much higher therapeutic doses of copper should be easy to get a good handle on even with API.
 

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I'm not sure if I replied, but I found that the API copper test kit is surprisingly accurate, when read on a spectrophotometer. I was having difficulty interpreting the color differences in the API test kit when measuring Coppersafe. I set up our Hach DR5000 and ran a standard curve. I could then measure Coppersafe accurately using the cheap API test kit as opposed to the Hanna, or high range Hach tests.

Jay
I’m just about to start a QT for the wife’s tank so I’ll see if I can get the copper to work on the Hanna phos LR. While I’m at at it I may as well try the ammonia on it also.
 

Red2143

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I’m just about to start a QT for the wife’s tank so I’ll see if I can get the copper to work on the Hanna phos LR. While I’m at at it I may as well try the ammonia on it also.
I think one has 525nm and the other 575nm so will be interesting to see what you come up with
 

MnFish1

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Based on your work, if we update the procedure and method the actual kit is strong, agreed. Api why have you delayed even one microsecond implementing a new instruction kit with a usage and context addendum for the readout

An updated usage packet with context info and confounds to avoid could streamline results much stronger + increases buyer brand quality association. Moving past 'must be zero to be safe' is the number one stricken clause in the new set

Considering the degree of doubt api has created in the ammonia test will the same instruction set since 1982, the undoing is simple, sell this to them as an addendum to or a new instruction set for the kit

they owe you for showing a method to streamline results/ social media big money/ they owe you a chunk. This thread shows its potential when the right order of ops plus reader ruleset is applied
It's because your premise is wrong. The instructions are fine - people just don't follow them.
 

Reefahholic

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I’m just about to start a QT for the wife’s tank so I’ll see if I can get the copper to work on the Hanna phos LR. While I’m at at it I may as well try the ammonia on it also.

I was just fixing to ask if anybody has tried the Hanna Ammonia checker. Interested to see your results for that. It would be nice to see daily results from day 1 to day 14 or whenever the cycle finishes.
 

Reefahholic

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It's because your premise is wrong. The instructions are fine - people just don't follow them.

I think Red Sea needs to update their instructions. First color change is waaaay off for me. They need to say “complete” “stable” color change that doesn’t change back… which could be like 3-5 drops further, and alter the reading for Mag from let’s say 1200 to 1400 ppm. That’s a 200 ppm deviation, but I’d say my average is typically 50-100ppm off!

But…I’m probably completely guilty of not performing that test accurately. Lol

I think I’m gonna bust out my 5 yr old Hanna Calcium Checker, and buy some reagents for it. Maybe that will give me a good reading.
 

Dan_P

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I was just fixing to ask if anybody has tried the Hanna Ammonia checker. Interested to see your results for that. It would be nice to see daily results from day 1 to day 14 or whenever the cycle finishes.
Are you looking for anything in particular? @taicha and I have followed large scale and small scale cycles.
 

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Are you looking for anything in particular? @taicha and I have followed large scale and small scale cycles.

3 things:

What Ammonia level works well for the cycle. I was keeping mine above 1 ppm if I remember correctly.

Average timeframe for cycle? Was it close to the same or just varied?

What turned out to be the best way to cycle?
 

Dan_P

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3 things:

What Ammonia level works well for the cycle. I was keeping mine above 1 ppm if I remember correctly.

To kick off the discussion, “works well” I assume means an optimum ammonia concentration, one that does not produce a high nitrite/nitrate level but grows a sufficiently large nitrifying bacteria population to safely add fish (I seem to recall a discussion that concluded cycling is unnecessary for a coral only system). My studies only addressed the rate of ammonia consumption and did not match it to ammonia production rate, e.g., so many inches of fish per ppm ammonia consumed per day.

Average timeframe for cycle? Was it close to the same or just varied?

For the same bottle of bacteria over a time period of less than a month, the rate of ammonia consumption did not vary. The time to cycle though is less well defined. When nitrifying bacteria (I used BioSpira) are added, they are pelagic. For me, the bacteria settled on the sand by the end of two weeks. During those two weeks, I was dosing to 0.5 ppm total ammonia every three days when the total ammonia reached zero

What turned out to be the best way to cycle?

Dose best way mean of the various approaches, bottled bacteria vs sacrificial fish vs live rock vs rotting a shrimp?
 
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Reefahholic

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To kick off the discussion, “works well” I assume means an optimum ammonia concentration, one that does not produce a high nitrite/nitrate level but grows a sufficiently large nitrifying bacteria population to safely add fish (I seem to recall a discussion that concluded cycling is unnecessary for a coral only system). My studies only addressed the rate of ammonia consumption and did not match it to ammonia production rate, e.g., so many inches of fish per ppm ammonia consumed per day.



For the same bottle of bacteria over a time period of less than a month, the rate of ammonia consumption did not vary. The time to cycle though is less well defined. When nitrifying bacteria (I used BioSpira) are added, they are pelagic. For me, the bacteria settled on the sand by the end of two weeks. During those two weeks, I was dosing to 0.5 ppm total ammonia every three days when the total ammonia reached zero



Dose best way mean of the various approaches, bottled bacteria vs sacrificial fish vs live rock vs rotting a shrimp?

Yes, by best way I meant the different methods that people use.

Dosing ammonia to a dry rock system worked the best for me. I never felt good about throwing a dead shrimp in the tank. Adding LR seemed to work well, because it had dead decaying organics anyway. Quality LR will obliterate that quickly when coupled with large water changes. In 2 weeks it was done and the water was crystal clear. Good LR is super beneficial, and really underrated for a reef tank. I’m almost kicking myself for not going that direction this time. KP rock is amazing, but man some of the pests drive me insane. You just have to embrace them I guess.

I think it’s also important to avoid adding Heterotro’s “with” your Nitrifier’s, because they will compete for nutrients, outcompete them, and slow the cycle down. I cringe when I see people adding GFO reactors on day one. That will steal the much needed phosphate.

I never was that good at cycling a tank, but I knew enough to get it done, and always wondered what the fastest way would be.
 
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Garf

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Back to the API thing, does it really matter if your alkalinity is 8.35, or just 8 to 9. Mine wobbles a bit with Salifert.
 

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Back to the API thing, does it really matter if your alkalinity is 8.35, or just 8 to 9. Mine wobbles a bit with Salifert.
I use sera drops to measure my alk, i couldn't care less if its 8, 8.2, 8.5 or 8.8. Anywhere in there is all the same IMO. I stopped using the hanna because it was less accurate over time than these drops.
 

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I think Red Sea needs to update their instructions. First color change is waaaay off for me. They need to say “complete” “stable” color change that doesn’t change back… which could be like 3-5 drops further, and alter the reading for Mag from let’s say 1200 to 1400 ppm. That’s a 200 ppm deviation, but I’d say my average is typically 50-100ppm off!

But…I’m probably completely guilty of not performing that test accurately. Lol

I think I’m gonna bust out my 5 yr old Hanna Calcium Checker, and buy some reagents for it. Maybe that will give me a good reading.
I am sorry if this has been mentioned before in this post and I am repeating.
Just throwing this out there. The API calcium test is pretty accurate IMO. Sometimes when I feel something is off, I double check with the API. It always reads within the margin of error of my other test kits. (Hanna and Red Sea) BTW the API test takes less than a minute to do.
Why am I still using the much more expensive and complicated other ones?
Because I am a slave to propaganda... :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:
 

Reefahholic

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I am sorry if this has been mentioned before in this post and I am repeating.
Just throwing this out there. The API calcium test is pretty accurate IMO. Sometimes when I feel something is off, I double check with the API. It always reads within the margin of error of my other test kits. (Hanna and Red Sea) BTW the API test takes less than a minute to do.
Why am I still using the much more expensive and complicated other ones?
Because I am a slave to propaganda... :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

This whole time I’ve been thinking ATI was just freshwater crap. Who would have thought. Might have to pick one up. If I could get a Cal and Mag test within 5-10 ppm I’d be thrilled to death. Surprisingly, I’m having more trouble with those two than anything else.
 

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