Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[Moe K]

Ah I forgot to mention.

For a while I was trying to do a mild version of the CRT concoction to try and give more bacterial diversity. For a while that just seemed to be feeding the dinos and it got worse. That was before any bleach dosing.

About a week ago I made a concoction with only calcium carbonate, zeobak, af pro bio s, coral sprint food, a few drops of neo nitro and phos, and a few drops of tm elimi np. Basically the CRT concoction without amino acids or zeozym to fuel the dinos. I did dose that a couple nights and it may have fed more dinos.

From now I will be just putting some calcium carbonate with tank water along with prodibio biodigest. Dose that at night a few hours after any bleach dose. Hopefully the calcium carbonate can be a better delivery method of the bacteria to the substrate. The only problem is I do wonder if they incased the bacteria in those vials along with amino acids or extra vitamins that could be counter productive to the dino fight.

 

[Lasse]

I´m not either try to shout you down - my reasons why I argue against it is similar to Taricha´s objections. There is other oxidant´s out there that is not form any persistent and potentially harmful by-products

However I´m a little confused when I see your microscope pictures. The most common microorganism in your video is these in the picture

For me - it looks more like some type of filamentous cyanobacteria - not like dinoflagellates.

But I´m not an expert of dinoflagellates - however @taricha is.

If it is - in reality - a cyanobacterial problem - your results will be more expected. It is already known that some cyanobacteria are very sensitive to strong oxidants (with some exceptions such as spirulina)

I also have to object to the common myth - (IMO a real myth) that polyp expansion in many branching hard corals is only a sign of well-being.

In a way it may be a sign that they are thriving but the expansion does not have to be related to food intake when it occurs during the day with full lighting. At full illumination, photosynthesis is at full speed and the coral animal must find an opportunity to get rid of the dangerous oxygen gas that is produced inside its tissue by the zooxanthellae.. This happens through diffusion between the animal's tissue and the water.

The rate of diffusion depends mainly on two causes - the concentration difference of oxygen between the animal and the water and the surface of the interface between the animal and the water. If the oxygen concentration becomes too high inside the animal, it means that the amount of oxygen radicals can become too high in the tissue (an oxygen radical is often the lone oxygen atom before it forms O2 (oxygen) with another oxygen atom) and this can cause serve damages to the animal.

This differential effect is - IMO - the reason why high water velocity around the interface between animals and water is of great importance because it prevents microenvironments with stagnant water near the interface (and thus high oxygen concentration in these microenvironments)

The difference in concentration is nothing the animal can affect more than eating/throwing out the zooxanthellae (bleaching). However - the second factor - the diffusion surface can be affected by the animal through swelling (many soft corals and LPS) or polyp expansion (many branching hard corals) - IMO. This means that polyp expansion during photosynthesis can means that there is a lot of oxygen produced and that the presence of active radicals may be what triggers the polyp expansion.

Your observations that you get an higher polyp expansion when you treat with active chlorine (an oxidant like reactive oxygen species) my strengthen my reasoning.

All your observation of polyp expansion when you dose bleach is of interest. Does it consist, does it appaer when its dark and so on. Have you seen any effects on swelling behaviour of LPS and soft corals?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Moe K]

I believe they are pinnularia diatoms.

I will continue the dosing for one or 2 more weeks with the LCA dinos gone or not. Then I will also be sending in an aquabiomics test the last day and report the results in about a month. I do have 2 other aquabiomics tests that I have done to compare to.

 

[Lasse]

I believe they are pinnularia diatoms

But are not they freshwater algae?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Moe K]

But are not they freshwater algae?

Sincerely Lasse

I see that is what google is telling me also . I for sure do not see what looks like typical cyanobacteria. 90% of my sand bed has turned into a more golden dusting of sorts typical with what I am used to seeing as datoms in the early stages. I may just go ahead and clean the glass with all flow off today and take more pictures.

 

[Lasse]

Yes - I admit that I check your statement with Google but it was just because I have never heard about rod shaped diatoms in saltwater before. But if you try to indicate that I have Google the other things I have write in my posts - you are totally out in a distant galaxy. I use Google as a tool to see if there is any updates from my old knowledge not tho shine and brine. I have been working with water and related issues for nearly my whole life and I was born right in the middle of last century.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Moe K]

I posted the images what l was told was diatoms to the dino facebook group and 2 more people said they were diatoms but unable to tell the specific species.

I decided to just go ahead cut it short and stop the bleach dosing today. Everything looks great except my sand still has growth with what ever is outcompeting the dinos (hopefully). There is absolutely no sign of any other dinos on any of the scape anywhere for me to pull a sample of.

I will be sending out samples for an aquabiomics test to hopefully get results by the end of the month. I will also send for an icp test.

Here is the tank today.

 

[Moe K]

In other news, I may have made a mistake with my carbon dosing methods.

I have been using zeostart for about 4 months and the dosing instructions called for such a low amount that I needed dilute it into rodi water. I sanitized my dosing container but didnt think the dosing lines would get build up of what is probably some type of bacteria. This is what I found today. Contaminated dosing lines?

In 2016 I had a 25g lagoon that I now remember had what looks exactly what this LCA looked like. I battled it for months without success. I thought at the time it was either cyano bacteria or some kind of freak sand algae lol. I started dosing nopox and it went away in about 2 weeks.

So just now I replaced the Zeostart with Reef Pro Bio Ex. Their were claims on their website that some witnessed dinos greatly reduced or eliminated. I saw it mentioned on WWC youtube channel by a reefer that claimed it also eliminated his dinos. It smells just like nopox.

I have set the doser at 3ml at night. Lets see what happens.

 

[Moe K]

Yes - I admit that I check your statement with Google but it was just because I have never heard about rod shaped diatoms in saltwater before. But if you try to indicate that I have Google the other things I have write in my posts - you are totally out in a distant galaxy. I use Google as a tool to see if there is any updates from my old knowledge not tho shine and brine. I have been working with water and related issues for nearly my whole life and I was born right in the middle of last century.

Sincerely Lasse

Oh no. Don't take it the wrong way. I believe you are far more educated in the matter than I am. But through google I like flying into other galaxies. Many of us not being educated deeply in micro biology, bio chemistry etc, rely heavily on the input of people like you and taricha for advice. You all are greatly appreciated.

 

[Reefahholic]

From my perspective, I can't recommend bleach under any circumstance when there are other oxidizers with much less risk that have almost the same upside.
I'm interested in your observations from a curiosity perspective, and we can talk about what bleach reacts with in saltwater and in what order.

I had a small remnant of bleach that apparently didn’t get fully rinsed out of a filter sock one time…

My PBT started swimming in circles until he finally died. They are very very sensitive to bleach. None of the other fish showed signs of distress.

Regarding Dino’s…

FWIW… Dino’s don’t need a magic pill. They are typically the result of a few things. You will find one of these are several of these in about every system that has Dino’s.

Young systems / Dry rock systems
Destabilizing events
Inverted nutrient ratio/ Depleted nutrients
Unstable chemistry
Over feeding/ too much amino’s vitamins, etc.

I still have Ostreopsis in my system, but they cannot touch my aquascape or really anything other than a frag rack, cleaned powerhead, new frag plug, etc. They’re completely outcompeted everywhere. They can only own anything that is lifeless. Once you understand that they’re basically in every system, you understand that it’s just a matter of outcompeting them until the system matures.


Systems that get bad breakouts just need to get past the 2 year mark and keep the chemistry in check until they do.

 

[brandon429]

Stop wasting money on aquabiomics testing it has no bearing on any diagnostics in reefing, it’s a hot button topic he’s making money on (anything with DNA in it)

Nobody has used an AB report to fix any tank invasion ever, don’t buy into this ripoff

 

[Mechano]

I had a small remnant of bleach that apparently didn’t get fully rinsed out of a filter sock one time…

My PBT started swimming in circles until he finally died. They are very very sensitive to bleach. None of the other fish showed signs of distress.

Regarding Dino’s…

FWIW… Dino’s don’t need a magic pill. They are typically the result of a few things. You will find one of these are several of these in about every system that has Dino’s.

Young systems / Dry rock systems
Destabilizing events
Inverted nutrient ratio/ Depleted nutrients
Unstable chemistry
Over feeding/ too much amino’s vitamins, etc.

I still have Ostreopsis in my system, but they cannot touch my aquascape or really anything other than a frag rack, cleaned powerhead, new frag plug, etc. They’re completely outcompeted everywhere. They can only own anything that is lifeless. Once you understand that they’re basically in every system, you understand that it’s just a matter of outcompeting them until the system matures.


Systems that get bad breakouts just need to get past the 2 year mark and keep the chemistry in check until they do.

I agree with this 100% with one addition
“Young systems / Dry rock systems
Destabilizing events
Inverted nutrient ratio/ Depleted nutrients
Unstable chemistry
Over feeding/ too much amino’s vitamins, etc.”

Having additional microfauna and diversity I think helps. Never had these problems with ocean rock once upon a time.
The tank needs stability, diversity, and letting it age. Also it helps by keeping your paws off the system and stop tinkering too much unless you’re a scientist.

 

[brandon429]

All dinos work threads are just tanks cycling from dinos to gha to cyano over and over with few actual cures.

This is why species ID or test and response of any kind is a waste of time, it’s not like anyone can direct someone to a winning dinos control thread based on any variable.

The way dinos threads and control articles work is it’s always someone who beat them at home but never in someone else’s tank. So, the entire thread is a series of first person testimony that never plays out in other peoples tanks, for hundreds of pages. Is that not literally what’s happening here for 236 pages

 

[Lasse]

The reasons why there is no general cure to these problems (more than a special persons holy graal - nuke them and start over) are that we handling biological eco-systems which are more or less unique for each system. The value of these threads is that it will give every person a pallet of circumstances and treatment methods that he/she have to adapt to their own systems.

Its the same with ICP tests and Aqua-Biomic tests - they give background facts that has to be converted by every aquarist in order to be used with his/hers own ecosystem.

A prerequisite for this is that you let it take time and work methodically. Not falling for the temptation to reset everything with a fresh start just because it might be possible without the fish dying. The fact that with repeated reboots they become susceptible to stress-related illnesses is always neglected in advice about total cleansing

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Moe K]

Stop wasting money on aquabiomics testing it has no bearing on any diagnostics in reefing, it’s a hot button topic he’s making money on (anything with DNA in it)

Nobody has used an AB report to fix any tank invasion ever, don’t buy into this ripoff

I agree with this to an extent. I only started doing those tests when I had torch corals dying one after another. The first test showed some coral pathogens but I later come to the conclusion that they have always been there even when no corals were dying. Pathogens have been in most of our tanks since the start of the hobby with no issue and now these tests are giving the illusion of a new problem when its not. But I still think it shows some insights to what is happening and would still be interested if some of those pathogens show more or less after the bleach dosing. Also it can show the small snap shot of time while the bleach dosing has been going on as to what happens to the diversity. Long term ( probably about a month) none of that will matter much as the microbiome will change again as the tank matures further.

I had a small remnant of bleach that apparently didn’t get fully rinsed out of a filter sock one time…

My PBT started swimming in circles until he finally died. They are very very sensitive to bleach. None of the other fish showed signs of distress.

Regarding Dino’s…

FWIW… Dino’s don’t need a magic pill. They are typically the result of a few things. You will find one of these are several of these in about every system that has Dino’s.

Young systems / Dry rock systems
Destabilizing events
Inverted nutrient ratio/ Depleted nutrients
Unstable chemistry
Over feeding/ too much amino’s vitamins, etc.

I still have Ostreopsis in my system, but they cannot touch my aquascape or really anything other than a frag rack, cleaned powerhead, new frag plug, etc. They’re completely outcompeted everywhere. They can only own anything that is lifeless. Once you understand that they’re basically in every system, you understand that it’s just a matter of outcompeting them until the system matures.


Systems that get bad breakouts just need to get past the 2 year mark and keep the chemistry in check until they do.

Many fish are high risk. Copperbands also may not survive and many more. Do you happen to know the specific bleach brand and label?

I am totally not under the illusion I am going to wipe out dinos completely from my tank. They will always be there IMO. Seeing people trying to dip coral, restart with sanitized everything is hard to watch because it seems to me almost like trying to start a tank while trying to keep out a specific bacteria strain. Good luck. Even if you did manage most likely once you start putting in things like cuc it is instantly re-introduced.

My goal was to give a window of opportunity to hammer the dinos into submission and then follow up with the methods we use today. Stabilize tank chemistry, introduce more competing organisms and hopefully cut the time frame of what can take several months to at least several weeks. If it was just otreopsis or similar it seems this would have all been done for me in less than a week. LCA is a biiatch.

 

[brandon429]

If there were two things I think reef2reef could do better to benefit the overall battle against dinos in this hobby it would be twofold action, to make a big impact:

1. stickies hardly ever get rotated. in any forum. this keeps up 2010 best practices still advertised as best practices in 2024 and it's not that way. you're making threads that have far better % cure rates have to work ten times harder to reach viewers. try 2 year rotations of content implied as a best practice. they get automatic 200+ page participation boosts by being at the top, not by % fix rate. testing other methods could evolve our hobby faster, by focusing on methods with a high % fix rate. every two years, change out sticky content if warranted, open a forum where we can make offers using work threads and you pick best outcomes content. make it a fair competition that evolves the hobby's best practices. don't b stagnant.

2. see rule #1

 

[Lasse]

If there were two things I think reef2reef could do better to benefit the overall battle against dinos in this hobby it would be twofold action, to make a big impact:

1. stickies hardly ever get rotated. in any forum. this keeps up 2010 best practices still advertised as best practices in 2024 and it's not that way. you're making threads that have far better % cure rates have to work ten times harder to reach viewers. try 2 year rotations of content implied as a best practice. they get automatic 200+ page participation boosts by being at the top, not by % fix rate. testing other methods could evolve our hobby faster, by focusing on methods with a high % fix rate. every two years, change out sticky content if warranted, open a forum where we can make offers using work threads and you pick best outcomes content. make it a fair competition that evolves the hobby's best practices. don't b stagnant.

2. see rule #1

I did not understand this - maybe because I´m not a native english reader - therefore I run this in Google translate - and - sorry to say - it did not make sense in Swedish either!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Reefahholic]

I agree with this to an extent. I only started doing those tests when I had torch corals dying one after another. The first test showed some coral pathogens but I later come to the conclusion that they have always been there even when no corals were dying. Pathogens have been in most of our tanks since the start of the hobby with no issue and now these tests are giving the illusion of a new problem when its not. But I still think it shows some insights to what is happening and would still be interested if some of those pathogens show more or less after the bleach dosing. Also it can show the small snap shot of time while the bleach dosing has been going on as to what happens to the diversity. Long term ( probably about a month) none of that will matter much as the microbiome will change again as the tank matures further.


Many fish are high risk. Copperbands also may not survive and many more. Do you happen to know the specific bleach brand and label?

I am totally not under the illusion I am going to wipe out dinos completely from my tank. They will always be there IMO. Seeing people trying to dip coral, restart with sanitized everything is hard to watch because it seems to me almost like trying to start a tank while trying to keep out a specific bacteria strain. Good luck. Even if you did manage most likely once you start putting in things like cuc it is instantly re-introduced.

My goal was to give a window of opportunity to hammer the dinos into submission and then follow up with the methods we use today. Stabilize tank chemistry, introduce more competing organisms and hopefully cut the time frame of what can take several months to at least several weeks. If it was just otreopsis or similar it seems this would have all been done for me in less than a week. LCA is a biiatch.

True…it’s kind of like raw milk. It’s not really a problem until some of the bacterial populations get to a certain level. That is why the better farms lab test their holding vats to make sure certain bacteria species aren’t elevated to dangerous levels. Same thing with Raw Kefir. Truly a super food, but it needs to be monitored IMO.

In our reef tanks, we really don’t know what promotes the growth of certain bacteria species over others, or at least I have seen the data. What levels are causing STN/RTN?
Most of the time it’s so complex that it could’ve been 15-20 other things that made the event happen. Yes… we do know a couple of bad pathogens are responsible, but like you said, most of those same pathogens have been around since we started reef tanks 40 years ago. How do we know it wasn’t elevated Zinc if we’re not testing for it. Twenty years ago nobody had a problem with low phosphate. Today people are consistently sitting at zero because of all the new technology that we have. To make matters worse everybody’s using dry rock. I keep seeing 4 month old tanks with a filter roller, GAC, GFO, Biopellets, Oversized Skimmer, 4 Filter socks, and 13 Radions running 100% on every channel. “My corals are pale and I’m loosing pieces.” Ya think!

I still think the most popular killers of coral are.

1. Swings
2. Low/ depleted phosphate (nutrients in general)
2. A lack of certain elements or completely depleted elements.
4. Pollutants

Try running a SPS tank with Potassium at 200 or 800, Zinc at 100, or PO4 at 0. Let me know how that goes.

To be honest… from all the data I’ve seen to date, bad bacteria would probably be at the bottom of my list, and low or depleted Phosphate would be near the top.

Time and time again (excluding swings), when somebody’s having issues it’s low or depleted phosphate, pollutants in their source water, or they’re majorly overdosed on one or multiple elements. Of course, there’s other issues too like lighting, nutritions, etc., but these are not near as common.

I do feel like with enough bacteria testing that will eventually zero in on things, but it’s only if people are giving honest information about their tank. I didn’t realize how much people lied until I started looking at ICP data. Now before I even have a conversation, I’m like let me see your ICP.

It’s kinda like the reefer that’s saying his nitrates are rising and he doesn’t understand why. He swears all he’s ever fed is 1/2 cube a day to a 250/G and only has 4 fish. You ask for the NO3 value and he doesn’t want to include it. Finally, out of desperation he sends the ICP data and the NO3 is 300 ppm. I can tell you without a doubt, there’s been much more going into the tank than 1/2 cube, and it’s usually been happening for months or years. Hehe. I takes a while for all the NO3 to be consumed and in some cases even though they’re doing everything right the sand-bed is so loaded up that you’re gonna wait months before it comes down unless you siphon it, change it, or keep a heavy bacteria population in the tank.

If that guy from Aquabiomics does this long enough, he will notice the same thing (probably already has). Many people are not dishonest about what they
tell you. The data often paints a different picture.