Do we need Nitrate in a reef tank?

[biom]

Thanks. I had not read that macro used high energy to convert no3, but I believe you and will add this to my calculus. BTW - we adopted 2 girls from Smolyan... I did not see too many reef tanks there in the mountains.

Nitrate is tough think to "eat" it needs a lot of energy to be reduced back to ammonia. There is no way to "incorporate" nitrate into an amino acid directly, nitrogen should be in more reduced form for this. The process of nitrate assimilation is almost the same for algae (micro and macro), plants and some bacteria.
My best regards to the girls Yes, there are no reefs there (at least for last 200 mln years) but Rhodope Mountain is magnificent.

 

[jda]

Really? Why is it that increased nitrate is directly correlated with a substantial increase in zooxanthellae populations?

If that is true for all coral, which is doubtful - and I have seen things going both ways - it was the added input that both increased the available forms like ammonium and also raised the no3 on the backend. The two are not directly linked but share a common source. From what I have read, excess zoox is not all that common in healthy coral and they take what they need to grow tissue - color is more indicative of sugars and light in healthy coral.

Super high nitrate interrupts cellular processes which can cause some coral to darken and grow, but this is a different discussion than supplying them with minimum building blocks to form new organic tissue. This is a stress response.

I also read somewhere that higher nitrate levels can suppress some chromoproteins that block and/or reflect certain light wavelengths (like UV for some) that alter color to even human eyes. This is also a stress response.

I would not assume that different/darker looking coral is always because of increase zoox. If it is, it is probably not a good thing.

 

[biom]

I have seen some literature that indicate that cyanobacteria can´t use NO3 - they either produce their own NH3/NH4 or use NH3/NH4 in the water.

They can actually, from here:
Lin., Stewart. 1998. Nitrate assimilation by bacteria.

>>>Well-studied genera are: the cyanobacteria, including the unicellular Synechococcus and the filamentous Anabaena; the gamma-proteobacteria Klebsiella and Azotobacter; and a Gram-positive bacterium, Bacillus.<<<<
All of them they having regulatory genes responsible for the nitrate-assimilation

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

If that is true for all coral, which is doubtful - and I have seen things going both ways - it was the added input that both increased the available forms like ammonium and also raised the no3 on the backend. The two are not directly linked but share a common source. From what I have read, excess zoox is not all that common in healthy coral and they take what they need to grow tissue - color is more indicative of sugars and light in healthy coral.

Super high nitrate interrupts cellular processes which can cause some coral to darken and grow, but this is a different discussion than supplying them with minimum building blocks to form new organic tissue. This is a stress response.

I also read somewhere that higher nitrate levels can suppress some chromoproteins that block and/or reflect certain light wavelengths (like UV for some) that alter color to even human eyes. This is also a stress response.

I would not assume that different/darker looking coral is always because of increase zoox. If it is, it is probably not a good thing.

I'm not saying it's particularly healthy for the entire holobiont, you said that zooxanthellae don't utilize nitrate previously which isn't true.

 

[biom]

Zoox/dinos, as well as most other microalgae, cannot use no3.

They can actually, from here:
Olofsson et al. 2019. Nitrate and ammonium fluxes to diatoms and dinoflagellates at a single cell level in mixed field communities in the sea.

<<Chain-forming diatoms composed 6% of total particulate organic carbon, but contributed 20% of C assimilation, 54% of nitrate assimilation and 32% of ammonium assimilation within the plankton community. In contrast, large dinoflagellates composed 11% of total POC, and contributed 14% of the C assimilation, 4% of ammonium and 9% of nitrate assimilation within the plankton community.>>

 

[jda]

Look at the ones studied as symbionts. Seen too many times that they cannot use no3 without help. I am not saying that any particular study is always right and I would read others.

 

[Lasse]

Just curious. Has anyone measured the amount of ammonia adsorbed by zeolites in saltwater?

It is known that clinoptilolite (a particular zeolite) will bind ammonia and that the ammonia bound can be displaced by salt. Thus I expect the amount bound in seawater is pretty low. We do not know what zeolite zeovit uses, or if it binds any ammonia (at least not that I have seen).

IMO, some of the zeovit ideas around ammonia are not logical. For years folks claimed the ammonia binding helped bacteria on the zeolite take up that ammonia, but that is not sensible since the zeolite does not attract ammonia toward the zeolite, but rather once ammonia is right adjacent to the zeolite pore opening and it drifts into the pore, the zeolite grabs and holds it, making bacteria getting it less likely, not more likely.

FWIW, my Norton antivirus just blocked the web page with the original pdf described in that thread as dangerous in a big red warning sign, so I'm not going back to it. lol

Here is the PDF @Randy Holmes-Farley It seems that some constructions can remove NH4 upp to a probably saturated situation - but the zeeovit guys claims that bacteria could pick up the NH4 from the zeolite pores (bacterial regeneration) but that´s impossible - bacteria is around 50 times larger than the pores that bind the NH4. The NH4 is out of reach for the bacteria. In this - we have the same standpoints.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[biom]

Look at the ones studied as symbionts. Seen too many times that they cannot use no3 without help. I am not saying that any particular study is always right and I would read others.

From Grover et al. 2008 -"...ammonium and nitrate were mainly taken up by the zooxanthellae." I am not aware of any animal species able to assimilate nitrate

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm not aware of any plants that are unable to use nitrate...I'm sure there must be an exception or two somewhere out there but i don't care enough to Google search it... zooxanthellae can use nitrate as a nitrogen source.

 

[Lasse]

I among these that prefer a NO3 concentration between 2 - 5 mg/L. One of the reasons is that if I read NO3 - I know that I have a N reserve in my water but I´m also run Phosphates well over 0.04 in these cases, There is reports that indicate that NO3 levels around 0.2 mg/L and PO4 below 0.03 can cause P defiency and bleaching among some stony corals. With PO4 above 0.04 - the amount of NO3 is not as critical.

Another reason is the fact as someone state - the only organism I know that really need NO3 is the denitrification bacteria. I prefer to see my aquarium as an ecosystem where bacteria may be the most important inhabitants. In a mature aquarium - there is a lot of different environments with there own set up of bacteria. In the part where oxygen is available - oxygen is used by heterotrophic bacteria in their cellular respiration. But there is also parts that are more or less depleted of oxygen (by the same bacteria) where there is still plenty of organic matter to "eat" Many heterotrophic can in these cases switch from aerobic respiration into anaerobic respiration in order to use the the organic resources. What anaerobic respiration really means? It means that oxygen is not available as an electron acceptor in the respiration - some other molecule must be used. Its here the NO3 molecule comes in as the savior in distress. Many bacteria strains can shift between oxygen and NO3 in the respiration cycle. The oxygen will give more energy but NO3 is first runner up in energy yield. The waste from aerobic respiration is as most of us know CO2 and the waste from anaerobic respiration with help of NO3 is N2 (there is a name for this - denitrification) Its important to note that there is many aerobic bacteria that can switch from using oxygen to be anaerobic - using NO3 in the respiration. OK - i want an anaerobic bacteria population that use NO3 i the respiration - why.


The answer is hidden in the fact the second runner up in the respiration race is bacteria strains that only use sulphate as electron acceptors in the respiration. Our aquariums is rich in sulphates - my own sulphate contend you can see below

This means that if not NO3 is available - the bacteria strains that use Sulphate as electron acceptor will dominate the anaerobic bacteria population totally. - And whats with that?

The most important "what" is the waste they produce - hydrogen sulphide - the rotten egg smell. Its a very toxic compound and IMO one of most common reasons for sudden fish death in mature system. Yes it can be produced even if NO3 is represented but IMO - measurable concentration of NO3 above 2 mg/L limit the hydrogen sulphide producers biomass because the bacteria that denitrify take up rather much of the available area for bacteria growth.

The bacteria that use sulphate in their respiration seems als to be of certain strains that not can use either O2 or NO3 in their respiration.

There is a third reason too - and its about cyanobacteria. My believe is that sometimes is not the mat building cyanobacteria blooms a result of nitrogen starvation but more a result of available phosphorous sources. Many times it had shown up that very low or total zeroed NO3 concertation result in blooming cyanobacteria mats. I´ll think that there is a link between the anaerobic bacteria population between the mats and the substrate. If no NO3 is present - the hydrogen sulphide producers will dominate. Hydrogen sulphide break the bonds between metals and PO4, hence PO4 will be available for consumption. If I got these mats - I always try to stirr the mats in the evening and add NO3 to the water. I´ll think that stirring the mats is good - even if you not suck them out - the mats is not primary the cyanobacteria - they are - IMO - external resources of mainly sugar produced formed during the daily photosynthesis

This was a long post and probably not exactly right in a scientifically way for a microbiologist but an attempt to explain why I prefer NO3 concentrations between 2 - 5 mg/L

And a attempt to explain why I say yes to the initiala question "Do we need Nitrate in a reef tank?"

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

I among these that prefer a NO3 concentration between 2 - 5 mg/L. One of the reasons is that if I read NO3 - I know that I have a N reserve in my water but I´m also run Phosphates well over 0.04 in these cases, There is reports that indicate that NO3 levels around 0.2 mg/L and PO4 below 0.03 can cause P defiency and bleaching among some stony corals. With PO4 above 0.04 - the amount of NO3 is not as critical.

Another reason is the fact as someone state - the only organism I know that really need NO3 is the denitrification bacteria. I prefer to see my aquarium as an ecosystem there bacteria may be the most important inhabitants. In a mature aquarium - there is a lot of different environments with there own set up of bacteria. In the part there oxygen is available - oxygen is used by heterotrophic bacteria in their cellular respiration. But there is also parts that are more or less depleted of oxygen (by the same bacteria) but there is still a lot of organic matter to "eat" Many heterotrophic can in these cases switch from aerobic respiration into anaerobic respiration in order to use the the organic resources. What anaerobic respiration really means? It means that oxygen is not available as an electron acceptor in the respiration - some other molecule must be used. Its here the NO3 molecule comes in as the savior in distress. Many bacteria strains can shift between oxygen and NO3 in the respiration cycle. The oxygen will give more energy but NO3 is first runner up in energy yield. The waste from aerobic respiration is as most of us know CO2 and the waste from anaerobic respiration with help of NO3 is N2 (there is a name for this - denitrification) Its important to note that there is many aerobic bacteria that can switch from using oxygen to be anaerobic - using NO3 in the respiration. OK - i want an anaerobic bacteria population that use NO3 i the respiration - why.


The answer is hidden in the fact the second runner up in the respiration race is bacteria strains that only use sulphate as electron acceptors in the respiration. Our aquariums is rich in sulphates - my own sulphate contend you can see below

This means that if not NO3 is available - the bacteria strains that use Sulphate as electron acceptor will dominate the anaerobic bacteria population totally. - And whats with that?

The most important "what" is the waste they produce - hydrogen sulphide - the rotten egg smell. Its a very toxic compound and IMO one of most common reasons for sudden fish death in mature system. Yes it can be produced even if NO3 is represented but IMO - measurable concentration of NO3 above 2 mg/L limit the hydrogen sulphide producers biomass because the bacteria that denitrify take up rather much of the available area for bacteria growth.

The bacteria that use sulphate in their respiration seems als to be of certain strains that not can use either O2 or NO3 in their respiration.

There is a third reason too - and its about cyanobacteria. My believe is that sometimes is not the mat building cyanobacteria blooms a result of nitrogen starvation but more a result of available phosphorous sources. Many times it had shown up that very low or total zeroed NO3 concertation result in blooming cyanobacteria mats. I´ll think that there is a link between the anaerobic bacteria population between the mats and the substrate. If no NO3 is present - the hydrogen sulphide producers will dominate. Hydrogen sulphide break the bonds between metals and PO4, hence PO4 will be available for consumption. If I git these mats - I always try to stirr the mats in the evening and add NO3 to the water. I´ll think that stirring the mats is good - even if you not suck the out - the mats is not primary the cyanobacteria - they are - IMO - external resources of mainly sugar produced during the daily photosynthesis

This was a long post and probably not exactly right in a scientifically way for a microbiologist but an attempt to explain why I prefer NO3 concentrations between 2 - 5 mg/L

And a attempt to explain why I say yes to the inital question "Do we need Nitrate in a reef tank?"

Sincerely Lasse

Sincerely Lasse

A thorough explanation and I understood it . Thanks

 

[Lasse]

A thorough explanation and I understood it . Thanks

Yes!!!

 

[Aqua Man]

- the only organism I know that really need NO3 is the denitrification bacteria. I prefer to see my aquarium as an ecosystem where bacteria may be the most important inhabitants

Great point! I’ll dose some NO3 just for the bacteria!

Is it even possible to be at a true zero for Nitrogen though? With fish and protein input, shouldn’t there be some in the water column at all times?

Do the bacteria reach an equilibrium with the inputs?

 

[jda]

The denitrification bacteria do reach equilibrium in my tank, at about .1. I have no idea how I could keep more if I wanted to, short of removing rocks and sand and trying to juggle a balancing act with anoxic area. Any rise is just temporary until the bacteria multiply. I have no doubt that I have nitrate around, it just gets chewed up quickly. I don't see how this is OK for ammoni[a,um] and no2 but not no3. I also agree that the ecosystem is the prize. To me, the no3 is just another step on the way to N gas and not an ending point.

I rescued a large group of anthias from a store that got them on accident. I had to SIGNIFICANTLY increase feedings just for them and my no3 did rise to about .4 or .5 for a few days, but then it was back down to .1. My po4 also rose but this took more time to come back down.

 

[Lasse]

The trick is to hold NO3 in a concentration that NO3 is not the limited factor for the denitrification bacteria. The biological demands for the ones that use sulphate and the denitrification bacteria is the same except for different electron acceptors in the cellular respiration. NO3 as an acceptor gives a much greater energy yield compared to sulfate so therefore they will grow faster and dominate more if NO3 is available in the water column. Experiences from waste water treatment and eutrophic freshwater lakes have shown that there is like a threshold around 2 mg/L NO3.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For anyone who can access the original article (I cannot), this article may be of interest to this discussion:

A systematic review and meta-analysis of the direct effects of nutrients on corals

Chronic exposure of coral reefs to elevated nutrient conditions can modify the performance of the coral holobiont and shift the competitive interactio…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[sixty_reefer]

For anyone who can access the original article 9I cannot), this article may be of interest to this discussion:

A systematic review and meta-analysis of the direct effects of nutrients on corals

Chronic exposure of coral reefs to elevated nutrient conditions can modify the performance of the coral holobiont and shift the competitive interactio…

www.sciencedirect.com

This article topics remind me of a a paper I read recently on the symbiotic relationship between two terrestrial organisms that in a way have a very similar nutrient exchange to corals and zooxanthellae.
The paper I read was in the relationship between a fungus and a plant the paper elaborated that in high nutrient conditions the partnership between both organisms is broken I suspect similar events may be possible in coral.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

This article topics remind me of a a paper I read recently on the symbiotic relationship between two terrestrial organisms that in a way have a very similar nutrient exchange to corals and zooxanthellae.
The paper I read was in the relationship between a fungus and a plant the paper elaborated that in high nutrient conditions the partnership between both organisms is broken I suspect similar events may be possible in coral.

How high are we talking about though?

 

[Garf]

For anyone who can access the original article 9I cannot), this article may be of interest to this discussion:

A systematic review and meta-analysis of the direct effects of nutrients on corals

Chronic exposure of coral reefs to elevated nutrient conditions can modify the performance of the coral holobiont and shift the competitive interactio…

www.sciencedirect.com

So, is the vertical axis a percentage increase, reduction?
If someone could enlighten me on how to convert the horizontal axis to ppm, that would be great, I have no idea, lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

How high are we talking about though?

It didn’t put a value to it, soil studies don’t usually use ppm as in water studies. One particular interesting observation was that high phosphates was usually the breaking point for the symbiotic relationship