Dosing hydrogen peroxide: good or bad?

[cb684]

Anybody had any bad reactions from SPS, or loss of system stability after dosing 1 mL of 3% hydrogen peroxide / 10 gallons? All the bad information I could find were based on POSSIBLE negative effects or after dosing more than that. If you read about a bad reaction would you please share where it was? Most of the first hand reports that I could find saw improvement with dinoflagellates and algae, or did not see changes at all.
I was also wondering how different it is from dosing ozone, or creating reactive oxygen species with UV?
Thank you.
CB

 

[brandon429]

my verdict is this

for anything someone wants to use peroxide for, an alt approach exists so its just an option among options for various things. I like it as a tank cleaner since runoff isn't largely impactful. the only sources I know to get any repeating info on it in the aquarium setting is the various threads that come up by searching peroxide in the reef tank, planted tank, terrarium etc.

 

[twilliard]

It does impact ORP briefly.
Also I would like!e to add in what purpose are you after for using peroxide.
Before I ever met Brandon I never thought of using peroxide, I always used chemical means .
Now after talking with Brandon about peroxide and algae I stumbled on the fact that it also is the safest way to rid of pests.
Absolutely no impact besides ORP
thanks Alex and Brandon!

 

[kbourque]

If it's dinos try lowering your lightning schedule and use Dino x I'm currently using it and on third dose. It's clearing it up nicely. I tried h202 and it really didn't help with dinos but did help get rid of slime buildup in my overflows used 2ml h202 per 10 gallons spread through the day with a doser. I don't have any sps yet so can't say anything on that. And Dino x contains ammonium compounds and a type of surficant.

 

[cb684]

Thanks twillard. I am just going through Brandon's thread as I could not find it before. I am fighting dinoflagellates, in a 400 gallon system and I am feeling better about using H2O2 now as a possible treatment. I did not share that in the beginning because I did not want to make this thread about my tank problem.
Another information I found in one of the threads I read through stated that would make sense to dose it on the peak of the daily light cycle. The rational is that would potentialize the treatment (probably creating more oxidizers). At the same time we know light will initiate H2O2 decomposition. Any evidences of the best time for use?

 

[cb684]

If it's dinos try lowering your lightning schedule and use Dino x I'm currently using it and on third dose. It's clearing it up nicely. I tried h202 and it really didn't help with dinos but did help get rid of slime buildup in my overflows used 2ml h202 per 10 gallons spread through the day with a doser. I don't have any sps yet so can't say anything on that. And Dino x contains ammonium compounds and a type of surficant.

Thank you kbourque,
You brought up another good question about the treatment. I am assuming that the peak of hydrogen peroxide dosed at once (1 mL of 3% H2O2 / 10 gallon) is important. Have you found any information why dosing throughout the day would be a better option?

 

[twilliard]

I am sorry to hear that especially in 400 gallons.
I haven't had the privilege yet to test with dinos. I hope in the future to obtain some for testing.
Lights off is about all I can say when using peroxide.

 

[kbourque]

Thank you kbourque,
You brought up another good question about the treatment. I am assuming that the peak of hydrogen peroxide dosed at once (1 mL of 3% H2O2 / 10 gallon) is important. Have you found any information why dosing throughout the day would be a better option?

Nope everything I dose is over time so I figured why not. Maybe that's why it didn't work. But the fact it got rid of the slime says it works for something. I read a lot about dinos and there are so many different types. Figuring out the type is the key to getting rid of it though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Anybody had any bad reactions from SPS, or loss of system stability after dosing 1 mL of 3% hydrogen peroxide / 10 gallons? All the bad information I could find were based on POSSIBLE negative effects or after dosing more than that. If you read about a bad reaction would you please share where it was? Most of the first hand reports that I could find saw improvement with dinoflagellates and algae, or did not see changes at all.
I was also wondering how different it is from dosing ozone, or creating reactive oxygen species with UV?
Thank you.
CB

It is totally different than ozone (which does not generally have an impact on algae or dinos), especially when passed over GAC before the water returns to the tank, but before going into details of why, can I ask why you want to use hydrogen peroxide?

Edit: Never mind, I see in a later post you are fighting dinos.

 

[cb684]

I am fighting dinoflagellates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am fighting dinoflagellates.

IMO, when dealing with dinos, the risks of problems from the various treatments are outweighed by the severe problem that dinos can be. Sometimes folks are on the verge of trashing the tank, so risks from oxidizers or other treatments are the lesser evil.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

On the con side of regular dosing of hydrogen peroxide (not for problems like dinos), here's the sort of concern I have:

The synergistic effects of hydrogen peroxide and elevated seawater temperature on the metabolic activity of the coral Galaxea fascicularis
Tomihiko Higuchi, Hiroyuki Fujimura, Takemitsu Arakaki, and Tamotsu Oomori
Journal Marine Biology
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0025-3162 (Print) 1432-1793 (Online)
Issue Volume 156, Number 4 / March, 2009

Abstract We examined quantitative changes in the metabolism of the coral Galaxea fascicularis caused by increases in both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) concentration and seawater temperature. Seawater temperatures were maintained at 27 or 31°C in a well-controlled incubation chamber, and three levels of H2O2 concentration (0, 0.3, 3.0 μM) were used in experimental treatments. Gross primary production, calcification rates and respiration rates were all affected by increased H2O2 concentrations and high seawater temperatures. Individual treatments of high H2O2 or elevated seawater temperature alone caused significant declines in coral photosynthesis and calcification rates within the 3-day incubation period. The synergistic effect of high H2O2 combined with high seawater temperature resulted in a 134% increase in respiration rates, which surpassed the effect of either H2O2 or high seawater temperature alone. Our results suggest that both high H2O2 concentrations and elevated temperatures in seawater can strongly affect coral metabolism; however, these effects cannot be estimated by simply summing the effects of individual stress parameters.

 

[cb684]

IMO, when dealing with dinos, the risks of problems from the various treatments are outweighed by the severe problem that dinos can be. Sometimes folks are on the verge of trashing the tank, so risks from oxidizers or other treatments are the lesser evil.

Any opinion on time for treatment (with or without lights) or bolus vs slow dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any opinion on time for treatment (with or without lights) or bolus vs slow dosing?

Not really, no. I've not seen enough examples to make specific suggestions.

 

[cb684]

bstract We examined quantitative changes in the metabolism of the coral Galaxea fascicularis caused by increases in both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) concentration and seawater temperature. Seawater temperatures were maintained at 27 or 31°C in a well-controlled incubation chamber, and three levels of H2O2 concentration (0, 0.3, 3.0 μM) were used in experimental treatments. Gross primary production, calcification rates and respiration rates were all affected by increased H2O2 concentrations and high seawater temperatures. Individual treatments of high H2O2 or elevated seawater temperature alone caused significant declines in coral photosynthesis and calcification rates within the 3-day incubation period. The synergistic effect of high H2O2 combined with high seawater temperature resulted in a 134% increase in respiration rates, which surpassed the effect of either H2O2 or high seawater temperature alone. Our results suggest that both high H2O2 concentrations and elevated temperatures in seawater can strongly affect coral metabolism; however, these effects cannot be estimated by simply summing the effects of individual stress parameters.

Could someone please check my rational to see if I missed anything?
So, 3% H2O2 = .882 mol H2O2 / 1 L = 882 uM; 1mL of 3% H2O2/10 gallon (most common concentration used for dosing) = 3*882/3600 = 0.735 uM (please correct me if I am wrong)
From the article it appears they only found changes on the higher (3.0 uM). So it appears it would fit with most of the anecdotal findings causing no observed impact on the livestock or on measured parameters other than ORP.

 

[Russ265]

i have a 300 gallon system.

i had dinos.

i dosed 2ml per hour for 2 months. it was far more effective than bombing the tank.

i first tried 3ml. but i saw some coral stress so i backed it off.

id start with 3ml and monitor. then maybe switch between 2 and 3ml per however many hours.

a fair warning:
if you dose as long as i did. you are at risk for a bacterial bloom from hell once you pull it. i got some white spiderweb bacteria that took a few days to clear out and it finished 3 corals that were on the verge of death after the dino infestation.

hth

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could someone please check my rational to see if I missed anything?
So, 3% H2O2 = .882 mol H2O2 / 1 L = 882 uM; 1mL of 3% H2O2/10 gallon (most common concentration used for dosing) = 3*882/3600 = 0.735 uM (please correct me if I am wrong)
From the article it appears they only found changes on the higher (3.0 uM). So it appears it would fit with most of the anecdotal findings causing no observed impact on the livestock or on measured parameters other than ORP.

3% is 30 grams per L, or 0.88 M or 880,000 umol

1 ml per 10 gallons (37,854 mL) is a dilution of 1/37,854 fold.

So the final concentration is 880,000 uM/37,854 = 23 uM.

 

[Russ265]

I dont believe calculating the h2o2 per gallon is proper for this application.

reason being is that i bombed my tank 1ml per 1 gallon and it did not solve the problem.

i had to do an extended drip method.

im only chiming in based off my observations.

observe your zoas or duncans after you do the dose and you will notice they bounce back after a couple hours.

food for thought

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I dont believe calculating the h2o2 per gallon is proper for this application.

reason being is that i bombed my tank 1ml per 1 gallon and it did not solve the problem.

i had to do an extended drip method.

im only chiming in based off my observations.

observe your zoas or duncans after you do the dose and you will notice they bounce back after a couple hours.

food for thought

It is appropriate if you are judging if the problems found in that scientific study of a galaxea coral might apply to a reef tank. Since the dose is far higher than the scientists used, it is an important warning, IMO.

That doesn't mean it isn't worth the risk when you have dinos, but many people think peroxide is without drawbacks at that 1 mL per 10 gallon dose, and this lack of risk appears to not be true.

 

[cb684]

Thanks Randy for reviewing my math...
Russ,
I tried to get the whole study but only had access to the summary. What I could get form the abstract, is that this specific study found significant difference on photosynthesis Galaxea corals after treating with 3 uM H2O2 or high temperature (87.8F). That does not mean that higher doses would cause more severe and/or other findings, and it does not mean that one would be able to observe gross morphologic changes in the corals. That is clearly not the case on for several other that have used it in the hobby.
Randy,
With that high dose used by others hobbyists, and even higher (Russ dosed 10x that) still coral survived and in most of the cases without any clear deleterious changes. So that brings up other questions that includes if different corals react different to H2O2; if increasing the concentration will have a proportional change on photosynthesis ability of the corals; and how long it would take for lack of photosynthesis to cause grossly observable changes on corals.
Anyways, this is good discussion I will continue looking into that later...