Dosing oxygen???

[atoll]

Thanks.



Why do you think it does that?

Often fish get harassed by existing fish and gills move quickly to pass oxygen over them or they are just stressed from transportation and being placed in a new environment. I consider using an Oxydator akin to placing an oxygen mask on the fish helping to breath more easily and to get over the initial stress period. Tangs especially seem to benefit from the increased O2 in the water most of which benefit from an optimum O2 level. I no longer keep tangs however as I concentrate on smaller fish but I do have 2 angels that are considered difficult fish to keep a Regal and a Multibar (C.mulitfaciatus) that do very well in my tank. I also have no problem with a cleaner wrasse. I am not suggesting the Oxydator is the sole reason why I can keep these fish well but I am convinced they are part of the reason I don't get issues with disease in my tanks.

 

[sundog101]

Does anyone know where O2 sat runs in most tanks? And what would an oxydator bump that up to?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does anyone know where O2 sat runs in most tanks? And what would an oxydator bump that up to?

Don't know about oxidator changes, but here are some articles on O2 with data (especially the third one).

IMO, Eric has a systemic error that makes his readings a bit low, and 95% is probably 100% or so (IMO) based on Figure 14 when the powerhead turns off. There's no reason in such a setting that O2 would start below saturation and rise above it from a powerhead turning off.


The need to breathe in reef tanks: is it a given right?
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/eb/index.php

The need to breathe, part 2: experimental tanks. Reefkeeping
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php

The Need to Breathe, Part 3: Real Tanks and Real Importance
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It has no bearing on whether the oxydator is useful or desirable, but their description of how it works is just so utterly stupid: lol

"How does the Oxydator work?

It makes clever use of Hydrogen peroxide's (H2O2) chemistry. This molecule consists of an oxygen atom loosely attached to a water molecule, like a ball in a gutter. One "shake", (or impulse of energy), will set it rolling and this gives it special energetic properties. The "shake" is caused by a catalyst in the peroxide reservoir."

 

[atoll]

Most people will notice that many fish that die do so at night when the o2 levels are at their lowest there is no coincidence tot his.

 

[atoll]

It has no bearing on whether the oxydator is useful or desirable, but their description of how it works is just so utterly stupid: lol

"How does the Oxydator work?

It makes clever use of Hydrogen peroxide's (H2O2) chemistry. This molecule consists of an oxygen atom loosely attached to a water molecule, like a ball in a gutter. One "shake", (or impulse of energy), will set it rolling and this gives it special energetic properties. The "shake" is caused by a catalyst in the peroxide reservoir."

Probably trying to explain it in layman's terms and maybe it could have been described more accurately. Fact is I am not alone in my observations. Many others report similar findings along with crystal clear water when using Oxydator's. The Oxydator has been around a long time and used for many years in Europe and in all manner of aquariums both fresh and marine. Two more examples, FW Shrimp breeders use them, Seahorse breeders use them and report increased survival rates of the fry. I use them along with many as they work for me and the technology is simple.

 

[atoll]

It has no bearing on whether the oxydator is useful or desirable, but their description of how it works is just so utterly stupid: lol

"How does the Oxydator work?

It makes clever use of Hydrogen peroxide's (H2O2) chemistry. This molecule consists of an oxygen atom loosely attached to a water molecule, like a ball in a gutter. One "shake", (or impulse of energy), will set it rolling and this gives it special energetic properties. The "shake" is caused by a catalyst in the peroxide reservoir."

Maybe this is a better explanation but I am not sure how much it would help the average aquarist understand any better with respect to how the Oxydator works.

Quote "Catalysts work by Providing an alternative reaction pathway for the breaking and remaking of bonds. The activation energy for this new pathway is often less than the activation energy of the normal pathway."

What matters to most is that the Oxydator works for them as they hope it will within it's own limitations and for what it is designed to accomplish.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What matters to most is that the Oxydator works for them as they hope it will within it's own limitations and for what it is designed to accomplish.

I don't disagree with that.

I only care about mechanistic descriptions when they are wrong or misleading. IMO, this is a borderline case, making hydrogen peroxide sound more benign than it might otherwise be, but I mostly find it sadly humorous.

I would have been happy with any simplistic explanation that wasn't wrong. Just saying

"hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) breaks down to water and oxygen"

would have been fine. The comment about hydrogen peroxide being water with a loosely attached oxygen atom is simply incorrect. It is H-O-O-H. There is no core of water in it in any sense. I don't know if they understand that or not, but if the statement is written to mislead, that is highly irritating. I can excuse ignorance. We all have some measure of it.

 

[atoll]

Randy, may I where you found that quote please as I don't recall reading that before and can't find it on the Söchting Oxydator site? Thanks.

Here is a link to the Oxydator's site.
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.oxydator.de/&prev=search

 

[atoll]

I tried editing the above post as I don't know what happened there, this is what I meant to post.

Randy, may I where you found that quote please as I don't recall reading that before and can't find it on the Söchting Oxydator site? Thanks.

Here is a link to the Oxydator's site.
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.oxydator.de/&prev=search

 

[Lasse]

I have exactly the same experiences as atoll with the oxydator and the reason why I use it is mainly that it give me crystal clear water. And IMO it is not only forming O2 gas - its also give some radicals to the water and work in a similar way as Ozone. I have not either found the quote at oxydator.de.

What I have learned is that the breakdown of H2O2 basically will form one H2O molecule and a free oxygen atom. If the O atom (or O radical) first meet another O atom – it will form O2 and if its first meeting is an organic molecule – it will oxidize that molecule.

I know there could be transition radicals like the OH but the main breakdown has been describe for me as free oxygen radicals. I never have doubt this because the use of peroxide in this way take away the yellowing substances in the water and they consist of molecules that is difficult to oxidize in a bacterial way.

Please correct me if I´m wrong.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, may I where you found that quote please as I don't recall reading that before and can't find it on the Söchting Oxydator site? Thanks.

Resellers, such as marine Depot:

https://www.marinedepot.com/freshwater_sochting_oxydator_information-ap.html

 

[atoll]

I have exactly the same experiences as atoll with the oxydator and the reason why I use it is mainly that it give me crystal clear water. And IMO it is not only forming O2 gas - its also give some radicals to the water and work in a similar way as Ozone. I have not either found the quote at oxydator.de.

What I have learned is that the breakdown of H2O2 basically will form one H2O molecule and a free oxygen atom. If the O atom (or O radical) first meet another O atom – it will form O2 and if its first meeting is an organic molecule – it will oxidize that molecule.

I know there could be transition radicals like the OH but the main breakdown has been describe for me as free oxygen radicals. I never have doubt this because the use of peroxide in this way take away the yellowing substances in the water and they consist of molecules that is difficult to oxidize in a bacterial way.

Please correct me if I´m wrong.


Sincerely Lasse

IMO Lasse it's not really the hows of how Oxydator's work but the fact as you know it works and works very well for so many people, that is what really matters at the end of the day the science is secondary to many. Like me, I guess you have many years experience using Oxydator's. and perhaps also like me experimented with varying strengths of peroxide and catalysts and yes I have gone over the edge with both but easily I corrected it.
I never use more than 12% and use 9% more often as my base % solution with 2 catalysts in 2 Oxydator A's placed in the sump of in my 100 gallon (total) reef.However, I do think they work better in the DT but they also work well in the sump. It's not as if Oxydators are in anyway new as they have been on the market many many years and well before I discovered them and experimented in my reef tanks along with some friends, we all reported similar results. Many reefers here in the UK now use them mostly singing their praises and reporting remarkable results since doing so.

Many thousands of aquarists use Oxydators in ponds and aquaria of all types and sizes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hydrogen peroxide in seawater does lots of different things, some positive and some possibly not so positive, but the Oxydator uses a catalyst to break down the hydrogen peroxide so it may behave quite differently in an aquarium than when H2O2 is simply added to seawater:

The decomposition of hydrogen peroxide by marine phytoplankton
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8888/4098b98540185b606db68197ef2219b0800b.pdf

Hydrogen peroxide is a reactive transient that can be found rather ubiquitously in the surface waters of the oceans at concentrations of 101 –102 nM

Even at its natural concentrations, hydrogen peroxide can still affect the marine ecosystem indirectly by modifying the speciation of trace elements.

...it affects the redox speciation of a number of ecologically important trace elements, including iron (Moffett and Zika, 1987; Millero and Sotolongo, 1989; King and Farlow, 2000), copper (Moffett and Zika, 1987; Sharma and Millero, 1989; Millero et al., 1991), chromium (Pettine and Millero, 1990; Pettine et al., 1991) and arsenic (Pettine and Millero, 2000). The speciation of these trace elements affects their biological availability and/or toxicity and, thus, their influence on the behavior of the marine ecosystem.

The sinks of hydrogen peroxide in the oceans have not been as well studied as its sources. The contribution from its chemical auto-decomposition is minimal to negligible

The major sink of hydrogen peroxide has long been suspected to be its biologically mediated decomposition

 

[atoll]

Hydrogen peroxide in seawater does lots of different things, some positive and some possibly not so positive, but the Oxydator uses a catalyst to break down the hydrogen peroxide so it may behave quite differently in an aquarium than when H2O2 is simply added to seawater:

The decomposition of hydrogen peroxide by marine phytoplankton
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8888/4098b98540185b606db68197ef2219b0800b.pdf

Hydrogen peroxide is a reactive transient that can be found rather ubiquitously in the surface waters of the oceans at concentrations of 101 –102 nM

Even at its natural concentrations, hydrogen peroxide can still affect the marine ecosystem indirectly by modifying the speciation of trace elements.

...it affects the redox speciation of a number of ecologically important trace elements, including iron (Moffett and Zika, 1987; Millero and Sotolongo, 1989; King and Farlow, 2000), copper (Moffett and Zika, 1987; Sharma and Millero, 1989; Millero et al., 1991), chromium (Pettine and Millero, 1990; Pettine et al., 1991) and arsenic (Pettine and Millero, 2000). The speciation of these trace elements affects their biological availability and/or toxicity and, thus, their influence on the behavior of the marine ecosystem.

The sinks of hydrogen peroxide in the oceans have not been as well studied as its sources. The contribution from its chemical auto-decomposition is minimal to negligible

The major sink of hydrogen peroxide has long been suspected to be its biologically mediated decomposition

The majority of hydrogen peroxide in the oxydator is broken down within the acrylic bell any residue is then further broken down by the dish as in the D model or in the case of the A model by the beaker and ball on the top. Very little if any peroxide is directly introduced into the aquarium water outside the confines of the Oxydator. However with high strength peroxide then the more likely some will find it's way into the DT but most of this will react with organics etc in the DT water

 

[atoll]

Resellers, such as marine Depot:

https://www.marinedepot.com/freshwater_sochting_oxydator_information-ap.html

Right, so it does not seem that has come directly from Söchting as I can find no references to the ball in a gutter scenario nor do I recall ever reading that before from Söchting. I think we have to be careful what stores have to say about what they sell as it's not always from the manufacturer. The "how it works" can be found on Söchting's site and as said no mention of what Marine Depot is reporting.

BTW for those interested, there is a FB group for Söchting Oxydators with lots of information on their use etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right, so it does not seem that has come directly from Söchting as I can find no references to the ball in a gutter scenario nor do I recall ever reading that before from Söchting. I think we have to be careful what stores have to say about what they sell as it's not always from the manufacturer. The "how it works" can be found on Söchting's site and as said no mention of what Marine Depot is reporting.

BTW for those interested, there is a FB group for Söchting Oxydators with lots of information on their use etc.

lol

You think the box boy at Marine Depot came up with it?

Obviously it came from them. Who else?

Anyway, it is the advertising that is being used at the current time to sell it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO Lasse it's not really the hows of how Oxydator's work but the fact as you know it works and works very well for so many people, that is what really matters at the end of the day the science is secondary to many. Like me, I guess you have many years experience using Oxydator's. and perhaps also like me experimented with varying strengths of peroxide and catalysts and yes I have gone over the edge with both but easily I corrected it.
I never use more than 12% and use 9% more often as my base % solution with 2 catalysts in 2 Oxydator A's placed in the sump of in my 100 gallon (total) reef.However, I do think they work better in the DT but they also work well in the sump. It's not as if Oxydators are in anyway new as they have been on the market many many years and well before I discovered them and experimented in my reef tanks along with some friends, we all reported similar results. Many reefers here in the UK now use them mostly singing their praises and reporting remarkable results since doing so.

Many thousands of aquarists use Oxydators in ponds and aquaria of all types and sizes.

I am not at all disputing it has the effects for you that you observed. I'm also not at the moment saying it isn't a fine product,.

But this forum is about FAR MORE than "it works". This is a chemistry forum, not a "how to" forum. People come here to understand, not just get told what to do.

The how things work is important, not least of all that a great many things in this hobby work sometimes and not other times. Why? Understanding how they work helps folks know when it is a good choice for their particular circumstances, and when it might not.

 

[atoll]

lol

You think the box boy at Marine Depot came up with it?

Obviously it came from them. Who else?

Anyway, it is the advertising that is being used at the current time to sell it.

I don't know where it came from just that it does not seem to have come from Söchting. Maybe its a bit of artistic (incorrect) licence from MD I don't know. IMO it does not even sound like something Söchting would put out there. Many shops in Europe sell Oxydators and I have never read such put out there by them.
Not that it matters in the real scheme of things as few hobbyists will pick up and it anyway, we don't all come from a scientific background. What matters to me is what Söchting put up there and in particular the fact it works as they say it should, the technicalities are neither here or there when it comes to practice and use for me and many more.
I do have a good understanding of how it works thanks to Söchting and what they put on their own website along with my own experience using Oxydators over many years. The truth of the pudding and all that.

 

[Holy_makerel]

It would be interesting to run an oxygen concentrator off of an APEX into a skimmer for when pH drops. (Certainly not the cheapest or best way).

The problem with dealing with O2 is the volatility of it, you wouldn't want the sump cabinet becoming saturated then have a spark kick off an explosion that brings a new definition to "catastrophic failure" in the reefkeeping hobby. ;Wideyed

"My tank blew up my livingroom"

A CO2 scrubber is a good tool if you can't run an outside airline, but you will be paying for media. Your best bet might be to try a refugium with a reverse daylight schedule and chaeto or macro algaes. It will boost your pH when it is lowest, and also remove NO3 and PO4's depending on how you manage it.

May have already been said (i didn't read the entire thread) o2 isnt explosive by itself. You can hold a flame in front if a 02 line and it will not ignite unless there is something for it to use as fuel. Its an accelerant. If you have elevated o2 and a gas leak thats where you'll run into issues or if you have a very high concentration it can make things that don't commonly combust more easily do so. Under normal circumstances you'd have to be pumping a whole lot into a space for that to happen.

Been blowing glass for over 10 years with an oxygen/propane torch. You can blow a flame out with too much oxygen.