Electrostatic charge

[TrPPnN]

The OP was about ElectroStatic Charge... in which solubility is a big part of detrital dissolution back into the water column... Randy is definitely the guy to hash this out with, especially with other concepts other than a particular device... which is kinda inconsequential at the moment...

The dynamics of water as a vehicle for nutrient export is pretty interesting...

So far, I've been seeing more and more spoken about the necessities of exotic metals such as gold and silver, being implemented ionically into RedSea Colors Kit, Miracle Mud, and now this thing... Kinda gets you wondering if there's a trend or something...

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Keep the info coming guys I'm loving this thread.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Agreed... but microbially, can NO3 be broken down and a waste product to be O2 in a anaerobic environment?

I don't think that generally happens. That would an an energy consuming process, so unless a microbe then used the O2 itself somehow, it would be a loosing proposition.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In this biological process, nitrite and ammonia are converted directly into molecular nitrogen (N2) gas. This process makes up a major proportion of nitrogen conversion in the oceans. The balanced formula for this "anammox" chemical reaction is: NH4+ + NO2- => N2 + 2H2O (ΔG° = -357 kj mol-1).[11]

FWIW, the anammox process certainly may be important in the ocean and in reef tanks.

 

[mcarroll]

I can't imagine it wouldn't be important both places even just based on the little I know. It's a basic part of the nitrogen cycle in sediment beds.

 

[TrPPnN]

There's also an article about the preferential uptake of Ammonia NH4+ in a Marine Ecosystem over NO3- ... in this case phytoplankton was utilized as the uptake organism...
http://lgmacweb.env.uea.ac.uk/vallina/VALLINA_and_LeQUERE_2008.pdf

 

[mcarroll]

I've read just a little on that and what's preferred is organism-dependent.

 

[Kurt Copeland]

I just went to the website for the "further explanation" and watched the video; A compilation of of still images showing various plastic pipe components with little red arrows superimposed over them and dramatic music in the background.

I'm that much close to comprehending their overall premise now.

 

[TrPPnN]

Yeah... organism dependent... So... if NH4+ is taken out and utilized by Macro/Microalgae, how does that impact the overall nitrogen cycle? We used to only understand that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are necessary for the Nitrogen cycle, however with the "active effective refugium" with macros, does the bacterial population become near insignificant?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There's also an article about the preferential uptake of Ammonia NH4+ in a Marine Ecosystem over NO3- ... in this case phytoplankton was utilized as the uptake organism...
http://lgmacweb.env.uea.ac.uk/vallina/VALLINA_and_LeQUERE_2008.pdf

We seem to be getting quite off track of the original discussion topic, but yes, many organisms take up ammonia directly. I expect the macroalgae in many reef tanks do that to some extent. It is one reason that limiting phosphate may be a better bet to limit algae growth than is reducing nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah... organism dependent... So... if NH4+ is taken out and utilized by Macro/Microalgae, how does that impact the overall nitrogen cycle? We used to only understand that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are necessary for the Nitrogen cycle, however with the "active effective refugium" with macros, does the bacterial population become near insignificant?

Sufficient macroalgae may make there less need to have nitrifying bacteria.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just went to the website for the "further explanation" and watched the video; A compilation of of still images showing various plastic pipe components with little red arrows superimposed over them and dramatic music in the background.

I'm that much close to comprehending their overall premise now.

You know what would be cool? A video in the dark showing the electrostatic sparks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah... organism dependent... So... if NH4+ is taken out and utilized by Macro/Microalgae, how does that impact the overall nitrogen cycle? We used to only understand that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are necessary for the Nitrogen cycle, however with the "active effective refugium" with macros, does the bacterial population become near insignificant?

I discuss ammonia uptake here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

from it:

Sinks for Ammonia in Reef Aquaria: Algae

Many organisms take up ammonia directly for use in making the proteins and other biomolecules they need to build tissues. Algae, both micro and macro, for example, readily use ammonia from the water. In cases where they are exposed to both nitrate and ammonia as nitrogen sources, many preferentially take up ammonia.6 When using nitrate, many of the pertinent biochemical pathways require the organism to reduce nitrate to ammonia before using it, so taking up ammonia makes sense.6 It has not been established in a reef aquarium setting, however, what portion of the macroalgae's nitrogen uptake is ammonia and what fraction is nitrate.

The amount of nitrogen taken up by a large macroalgal filter is substantial. A free PDF (portable document format) article in the journal Marine Biology13 has some useful information with respect to the potential export abilities of algae. It gives the phosphorus and nitrogen content for nine different species of macroalgae, including many that reefkeepers maintain. For example, Caulerpa racemosa collected off Hawaii contains about 0.08% by dry weight phosphorus and 5.6% nitrogen. Harvesting a pound (454 g; dry weight) of this macroalgae from a reef aquarium would be the equivalent of removing 25.4 grams of nitrogen, which, if it were all present in 100 gallons of water as ammonia, would be equivalent to a concentration of 67 ppm total NH4-N. Even if it took three months to grow to that mass, it would effectively be taking out the equivalent of 0.75 ppm total NH4-N per day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah... organism dependent... So... if NH4+ is taken out and utilized by Macro/Microalgae, how does that impact the overall nitrogen cycle? We used to only understand that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are necessary for the Nitrogen cycle, however with the "active effective refugium" with macros, does the bacterial population become near insignificant?

FWIW, I often put a bunch of macroalgae in a QT tank for this purpose: keeping ammonia down.

 

[TrPPnN]

Awesome... Thanks, Randy!

 

[mcarroll]

Yeah... organism dependent... So... if NH4+ is taken out and utilized by Macro/Microalgae, how does that impact the overall nitrogen cycle? We used to only understand that nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are necessary for the Nitrogen cycle, however with the "active effective refugium" with macros, does the bacterial population become near insignificant?

My understanding is that salinity is the major factor that dictates the microbial makeup of a given environment. Food sources and other things are also factors.

The only time I'm aware of where microbial communities are "near insignificant" is when we're failing to account for their role.

 

[rygh]

As an electrical engineer, I must admit being intrigued by the static charge discussions.
(I tend to agree in general that the specific product marketing claims are nonsense)

On one hand, there is the static charge buildup.
(helpful wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect)
On the other hand, there is the discharge through the conductive water.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_laws_of_electrolysis)

KEY: Current flow through salt water is quite different from flow through a wire.
It is not electrons moving. It is actually ion movement, and a form of electrolysis.
And I think that matters quite a bit on the atomic scale.

So here is a thought:
Over VERY short range, I would think there might be electric fields being generated
and discharged, with the accompanying ionic movement.
That means there are regions of water with different ionic saturation levels.
Those ionic levels might have a slight effect on the amount of maximum dissolved CO2,
and thus trigger out-gassing or at least slightly improved diffusion to nearby bubbles.
There also may be small regions with significant electric fields, but I don't really see how that affects CO2 directly.

Of course: That exact same thing may occur in a skimmer.
Because I don't see how the silver would play into the electrical effects, and that is really the only difference.
Yes, a small piece of ungrounded metallic conductor, producing some interesting ions ... but then what?
Seems like marketing/antimicrobial.

Fun to think about though.
(Caveat: I am not even remotely an expert on electrolysis or triboelectric effects)

 

[Cory]

Randy you should try using the word atomic in place of cool lol. Seems to suit your profession better lol. I might start using that term myself

Im just following this thread sorry i dont have anything useful to add.

 

[klp]

A Japanese company called Nikken sells magnets to put on home water supplies to stop minerals from clumping according to their literature. This is supposed to give the effect of soft water by stopping buildup in the pipes. I have never heard of any reason why magnets would be of any benefit at all in a salt water aquarium. I would certainly defer to Randy who seems to have a handle on it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A Japanese company called Nikken sells magnets to put on home water supplies to stop minerals from clumping according to their literature. This is supposed to give the effect of soft water by stopping buildup in the pipes. I have never heard of any reason why magnets would be of any benefit at all in a salt water aquarium. I would certainly defer to Randy who seems to have a handle on it.

Such devices have been around for many decades and have had many different, usually very small companies selling them. There are few verifiable sets of controlled data to show it works to prevent scale buildup. I don't see how it could hurt anything, so doing your own experiments is fine, but I very strongly doubt it has any useful application in a reef aquarium