Fish disease on the rise?

SteveC · Jan 7, 2019

I’m curious if this might be the case. I have in the last 1 1/2 years got back into the hobby after about a 40 year break. Yes, definitely a lot of things have changed for the better. But back then I had what was concidered a big tank of 275 gal. It was all started with live rock, cycled, fish added and soft corals too.
Not one fish added to the tank was quarantined in the 6 years I kept it and the same for any corals added. I lost not one fish to disease, except a couple to disagreements! There was no internet back then or mobile phones. So, communication was not very good as compared to these times. Perhaps it’s because it’s more popular to keep reef and marine tanks now than back then. I’m not so sure that I was just lucky back then.
Anyone else have some thoughts

HotRocks · Jan 7, 2019

It is considerably worse. It's a culmination of things. As the hobby grows, so do distribution facilities. These facilities are large enough that it's not necessarily cost prohibitive to sanitize regularly. Many of the fish only spend a few days in these places before they are sold. The progression over time can also be attributed to parasites and glass boxes. These facilities see so many fish come and go. The concentration of the parasites grows in numbers in an enclosed system over time.

@4FordFamily never QT'd fish for his first 10 years in the hobby, and the progression caused him to switch a few years back. I entered the hobby being advised to properly QT so I can't speak from my own personal experience.

What I can tell you is I have seen about anything you can come across disease related on fish (in large quantities) over the past couple years.

SteveC · Jan 7, 2019

I thought as much. It appears to me that this is becoming ( is) a real concern as we progress further. I wonder where this will end up?

Retro Reefer · Jan 7, 2019

I never quarantined anything in 30+ years of marine fish keeping until a couple years ago, I used to lose maybe 10-15% of fish just bringing them home and putting them straight into DT now it’s well over 50% even trying to be careful with selection and quarantining.

BZOFIQ · Jan 7, 2019

I have to agree with O/P.

10-15 years ago I never worried; now I feel that the next arrival is going to wipe my tank.

Humblefish · Jan 7, 2019

I first started quarantining 20+ years ago, but it was mandated by the service company I worked for at the time. Some of these quarantined fish went into my personal DTs, but other times I would buy a fish from a LFS and just drop him straight in (without QT.) Eventually I got ich in a few of my tanks, but nothing I couldn't manage by running a UV, heavy feedings, etc.

When I got back from Europe 10 years ago, I setup a little 57gal and once again didn't QT anything. Within a couple of months I was battling flukes & velvet simultaneously.

Setup a 120 SPS reef and same thing happened. All the fish kept dying despite my best management efforts.

So I decided I had enough of this **** and there must be a better way. ;Smuggrin

SteveC · Jan 7, 2019

I wonder if the industry needs to step up a bit more. I think the supply and demand market will eventually drive it. If it were dogs, cats, rabbits that were being bought with disease that easily killed them what an uproar there would be. Maybe it’s time we demanded better, I don’t think it’s to much to expect to buy an animal that is healthy.

Humblefish · Jan 7, 2019

SteveC said:
I wonder if the industry needs to step up a bit more. I think the supply and demand market will eventually drive it. If it were dogs, cats, rabbits that were being bought with disease that easily killed them what an uproar there would be. Maybe it’s time we demanded better, I don’t think it’s to much to expect to buy an animal that is healthy.

The industry doesn't care about the health of fish, just making money. Selling fish is just one means to that end.

SteveC · Jan 7, 2019

Yes your right, they dont at the moment.

They might if the fish they get start dying before they can offload them to the buyers.
Or we as buyers start to object buying disease riddled fish. while we continue to buy them then they will do little to address this unless it hurts their bottom line.

As i said. If it were dogs or cats we were buying like this there would be an outrage! We should demand better than the current situation.
I really dont know of any product sold that we buy and accept the situatioN like we do with fish. There could be a lot more done prior to us buying a fish. But as you rightly say, why would they bother when they can just sell us another fish?
Plenty more dogs or cats!

Humblefish · Jan 7, 2019

SteveC said:
They might if the fish they get start dying before they can offload them to the buyers.
Or we as buyers start to object buying disease riddled fish. while we continue to buy them then they will do little to address this unless it hurts their bottom line.

Some wholesalers lose 30-40% of certain shipments. They just pass that loss on to their retailer customers, who in turn pass it on down to the consumer. (The price difference between what the wholesalers pay for fish vs. what you pay is truly mind-boggling.)

I believe there is a market for selling quarantined, disease-free fish; but I also believe that market is limited. Most people are always going to buy whatever is the cheapest. Doesn't matter if its a TV or a fish.

SteveC · Jan 8, 2019

I hear you humble fish, but even the cheapest tv you would expect it to work. They can and will pass on the losses until the consumer won’t pay the price. Then their margins get slimmer and they will see the need to improve their fish losses to maintain the profit margins.
I hope I live to see that day when the fish is as important as the profits

Humblefish · Jan 8, 2019

SteveC said:
I hope I live to see that day when the fish is as important as the profits

Me too

Just a few years ago I would have fought vehemently against any efforts to ban our hobby. But after seeing firsthand how the industry operates, I don't think I would oppose it now.

tgrick · Jan 8, 2019

I'll chime in also. Livestock was not riddled with ick and velvet or flukes or bacteria like it is today. You would see it here and there but not like today. I refuse to put a fish in a DT that has not been properly treated. I make exceptions to corals once in a while but it depends where I buy it from. A LFS I go to has a few saltwater items and therefore the inventory barely moves. I know some of the stuff sits for weeks or even months in a fallow system and I'm okay with introducing that coral as it was basically in quarantine anyway. Places with a lot of turnover...ahh no.

I can say without exception that I have not purchased a single fish in 2018 that did not have ick or velvet or flukes. Every animal had something.

SteveC · Jan 8, 2019

It saddens me to think that we are part of the problem too. I feel I’m in a somewhat unique situation with a 40 yr gap where I had nothing to do with marine, not even it’s progress. There are some great advances in regard to keeping corals, some we only dreamed of keeping back then. The gear now available is fantastic. But on the fish side I’m saddened by so many deaths and the fact we are accepting it’s just the way it is. On a side note, some things old are new again. We used to use chloroquine phosphate as a treatment for a sick fish back then. I never had to use it for my fish, but found the old container the other day. Whoever, finds a treatment for our fish is going to be a very wealthy person. One day. Cheers for the conversation.

Premmy007 · Jan 8, 2019

At some point i came to conclusion that it might be exporters that puts one, two sick fish in every shipment. That keeps them going. There are certain directions like Sri Lanka or Indonesia, that always cause problems and its not the white spots or oodinum. These are quite easy to treat. Its the bloody brooklynella often diagnosed by mistake as a white spots. Its the only disease that can wipe your tank in a space of 72hours. Now i know that next second day after delivery you need to start reducing salinity, usually up to 1.014 and dose the tank with femsal for example. Tried esha trimarin, that suppose to treat it as well but not much luck.

SteveC · Jan 8, 2019

Im not sure about the United States but in Australia the LFS dose copper ( cupramine ) at .2ppm to their tanks. They obviously do This to stave off any disease from killing their stock but not enough to take the risk of copper poisioning. When the buyer gets the fish home and into a tank QT or otherwise without copper the parasite can then multiply and kill before we know it.

SteveC · Jan 8, 2019

Im not sure about the United States but in Australia the LFS dose copper ( cupramine ) at .2ppm to their tanks. They obviously do This to stave off any disease from killing their stock but not enough to take the risk of copper poisioning. When the buyer gets the fish home and into a tank QT or otherwise without copper the parasite can then multiply and kill before we know it.

Frtdrmrose7 · Jan 8, 2019

Humblefish said:
Some wholesalers lose 30-40% of certain shipments. They just pass that loss on to their retailer customers, who in turn pass it on down to the consumer. (The price difference between what the wholesalers pay for fish vs. what you pay is truly mind-boggling.)

I believe there is a market for selling quarantined, disease-free fish; but I also believe that market is limited. Most people are always going to buy whatever is the cheapest. Doesn't matter if its a TV or a fish.

I definitely would pay extra for a property quarantined fish, I could only imagine how nice it would be.