Fish Dying - Followup

[Maritimer]

Sorry to hear about the loss of the cardinals and clowns - and your aquascape!. Velvet is a bear.

You've been getting excellent advice in this thread so far - my thanks to @Smo, @Big G and @4FordFamily, as my notifications for the thread dropped somehow.

You can switch to Coppersafe, but should do that water change, so you know what you've got in the tank. With a mismatched test kit and some level of "the other copper" in the tank, your readings may be inaccurate - and some of these tests are hard enough to read as it stands!

Copper treatment only lasts 14 days if you're going to move the fish to a second, clean & uncontaminated QT immediately after treatment. If you're going to keep them in the same 20-gallon, then treatment should last 30 days.

~Bruce

 

[PeterG]

Thanks Bruce, I don't have another QT tank or room for one so I guess I'll treat for the full 30 days.
If I stick with the Cupramine do I have to dose every day or only when the level falls below Humblefish's suggested range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm?

 

[Maritimer]

Only when (if - it's generally pretty stable, but this is a "trust but verify" situation) levels fall. Copper being an element, unless it's being absorbed by something in the water, should remain relatively stable.

~Bruce

 

[Big G]

If I stick with the Cupramine the treatment lasts 14 days. Do I have to add copper every day or does it stay in the tank.

The copper stays in the tank. No need to add additional copper when you are topping off for the evaporated water. Just remember to dose copper in any water you are replacing due to a water change. If you take out 5 gallons of copper treated water from your tank; replace it with 5 gallons of copper treated water. You never want to let the copper level drop below the therapeutic level in the tank during the 14 or 30 day period.

 

[Maritimer]

Good point - and to clarify, add the copper to water-change replacement water _before_ adding the water to the tank. Don't even give velvet five minutes at below-therapeutic copper!

~Bruce

 

[PeterG]

The copper stays in the tank. No need to add additional copper when you are topping off for the evaporated water. Just remember to dose copper in any water you are replacing due to a water change. If you take out 5 gallons of copper treated water from your tank; replace it with 5 gallons of copper treated water. You never want to let the copper level drop below the therapeutic level in the tank during the 14 or 30 day period.

Good point - and to clarify, add the copper to water-change replacement water _before_ adding the water to the tank. Don't even give velvet five minutes at below-therapeutic copper!

~Bruce

Thanks Guys, That helps clarify things a bit. Went to bed hopeful as everyone was swimming but woke this AM to find my Coral Beauty Angel dead and my wrasses on life support. Is there anything else to be done at this point? Only fish looking like that got a fighting chance are a pair of firefish and a pair of Pajama Cardinals. Will stay the course unless I hear different.
Got the Seachem Copper test, ammonia badge and bacteria on order from Amazon, should be here Wed.
Oh, is there anything I need to add or do to the DT that wont harm the corals or inverts? I've got a bunch of hermit crabs, snails and a few conchs along with a Peppermint Shrimp and a Serpent Star still in the tank.
Regarding this sponge for the bacteria, will a standard kitchen type sponge work?

 

[Smo]

Sorry for your loss. I faced the same challenge this time last year. Got thru it with three survivors that are all thriving today.
Nothing to do for the DT except feed it lightly every few days.
Recommend NOT using a kitchen sponge as it may have coatings to kill bacteria and odor. An air driven filter sponge works best. Also available on Amazon.
Merry Christmas.

 

[Big G]

Regarding this sponge for the bacteria, will a standard kitchen type sponge work?

Many kitchen sponges are chemically treated. Avoid them. I'm assuming someone mentioned sponge, meaning aquarium sponge like the kind found within a HOB filter or a in tank sponge filter/air bubbler unit.

 

[PeterG]

Sorry for your loss. I faced the same challenge this time last year. Got thru it with three survivors that are all thriving today.
Nothing to do for the DT except feed it lightly every few days.
Recommend NOT using a kitchen sponge as it may have coatings to kill bacteria and odor. An air driven filter sponge works best. Also available on Amazon.
Merry Christmas.

Many kitchen sponges are chemically treated. Avoid them. I'm assuming someone mentioned sponge, meaning aquarium sponge like the kind found within a HOB filter or a in tank sponge filter/air bubbler unit.

Merry Christmas to you both. Thanks for taking some time today to reply.

Are we talking about a Biochenical sponge like this that I could put in the HOB filter: https://www.amazon.com/Biochemical-...217210&sr=8-3&keywords=aquarium+filter+sponge

 

[PeterG]

Sorry for your loss. I faced the same challenge this time last year. Got thru it with three survivors that are all thriving today.
Nothing to do for the DT except feed it lightly every few days.
Recommend NOT using a kitchen sponge as it may have coatings to kill bacteria and odor. An air driven filter sponge works best. Also available on Amazon.
Merry Christmas.

Sorry to hear you had to go thru a similar experience. Seems like its not all that rare with saltwater fish. I've got such a helpless feeling here. At least with dogs & cats we go the vet and most of time intervention saves our pets. We've even got a bird vet locally if the need arises.
Took a few photos including some of the dead fish. Maybe someone will recognize some visible symptom to pinpoint the disease. Got to upload them to my machine and process. Will try to post later today.

 

[Smo]

I would get a plain bio-sponge—one that won’t absorb any meds in the water.

 

[Tristren]

Merry Christmas to you both. Thanks for taking some time today to reply.

Are we talking about a Biochenical sponge like this that I could put in the HOB filter: https://www.amazon.com/Biochemical-...217210&sr=8-3&keywords=aquarium+filter+sponge

What was recommended to me was one of these :
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01MA2Z15M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_apsqAbKJFKMSE

You use it with a little air pump like this :
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0009YJ4N6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_EqsqAbRAP4MZ9

A bit of extra filtration as well.


Good luck, Tony

 

[Smo]

Sorry to hear you had to go thru a similar experience. Seems like its not all that rare with saltwater fish. I've got such a helpless feeling here. At least with dogs & cats we go the vet and most of time intervention saves our pets. We've even got a bird vet locally if the need arises.
Took a few photos including some of the dead fish. Maybe someone will recognize some visible symptom to pinpoint the disease. Got to upload them to my machine and process. Will try to post later today.

Yes, I am a dog lover too. 15 months ago I was just starting my reef tank. Thought I could get away without QTing my first few fish. Big mistake. ICH and velvet are prevalent in the supply chain. Now everything wet gets QTed. Fish are also prophylacticly treated. Only loss since then was a jumper that snuck thru a gap in my cover. About to correct that too.

 

[Big G]

What was recommended to me was one of these :
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01MA2Z15M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_apsqAbKJFKMSE

You use it with a little air pump like this :
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0009YJ4N6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_EqsqAbRAP4MZ9

A bit of extra filtration as well.


Good luck, Tony

^^^ exactly. Very handy when dosing meds that reduce oxygen in the water column like PraziPro.

 

[PeterG]

What was recommended to me was one of these :
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01MA2Z15M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_apsqAbKJFKMSE

You use it with a little air pump like this :
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0009YJ4N6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_EqsqAbRAP4MZ9

A bit of extra filtration as well.
Good luck, Tony

Perfect! Thanks Tony. Got these items and all other supplies on order from Amazon. Hope to have it tomorrow.
Update: My Six-line Wrasse didn't make it but the Christmas Wrasse is looking a bit more composed. Yesterday he was really helter skelter swimming erratically. Firefish & Pajama Cards are all stable.
BUT no one is eating anything yet. I've tried PE mysis shrimp, flakes and pellets. It's all just lying around in the corners and on the peices of PVC pipe I put in for hiding places. Today I soaked food in Vita Chem & Selcon.
Questions:
Anything else to induce them to eat?

Ammonia badge on the way, but what do I do if it indicates high NH3 ? I think someone mentioned not to add any detoxing agents while copper in tank. Should I just do a water change.

The thermometer that came with the Aqueon kit is keeping the water at 77°F rather than the stated preset 78°. Is this critical? I’m in FL so haven’t needed any heaters yet. Was thinking of getting one to heat the water I make in the garage to tank temp. Any suggestions on size, brand?

Is it necessary to sterilize my buckets, hose, nets, etc to prevent transfer of disease? I've been soaking everything in water with some bleach for a few hours; then soaking in clean rinse water.

That’s all I can think of at the moment. Again, thanks everyone for your patience and valuable input.

 

[Tristren]

Live food always seems to be more enticing. Not sure how that would gel with the QT process you're following so I'll leave it to others to comment on that.

But garlic seems to be very very popular with fish. So soaking food in a garlic extract.
I've used this
http://www.seachem.com/garlicguard.php
and this
http://aquaforest.eu/en/product/garlic-oil/

To good effect. Your LFS should have one or both. If not then BRS or Amazon.

The latter is concentrated with some extra oils and things, so not sure if the Garlic Guard will let you have more garlic pop (as you can add more).


Cheers, Tony

 

[Big G]

-Live brine shrimp or live blackworms are irresistible to fish.
-I'd do a 10% water change each day until you get your Seachem ammonia badge. Place the badge deep into the tank. Lights on top of the tank can interfere with the badge functioning properly. When viewing the badge use a flashlight to illuminate it from behind or the side to get an accurate color to show.
-Remember to add in the copper to the new mixed water before adding to the tank. You do not want the copper level in the tank to drop below the therapeutic levels even for a moment. And yes, do not add products like Prime to copper treated water. It creates a toxic mix.
-Aqueon Pro heaters are awesome. No glass to break. Very reliable.
- bleach is good for getting rid of the aquarium bio-film. I like to follow the bleaching with a wipe down with vinegar. It neutralizes any copper when cleaning/taking down a QT. Rinse with water and let dry for a few days.

 

[PeterG]

Live food always seems to be more enticing. Not sure how that would gel with the QT process you're following so I'll leave it to others to comment on that.

But garlic seems to be very very popular with fish. So soaking food in a garlic extract.
I've used this
http://www.seachem.com/garlicguard.php
and this
http://aquaforest.eu/en/product/garlic-oil/

To good effect. Your LFS should have one or both. If not then BRS or Amazon.

The latter is concentrated with some extra oils and things, so not sure if the Garlic Guard will let you have more garlic pop (as you can add more).


Cheers, Tony

Gonna head over to my LFS asap. Saw the fish poking around with the Mysis shrimp on the bottom last night. Should be more than what I'm seeing so hopefully some of it is being eaten.

-Live brine shrimp or live blackworms are irresistible to fish.
-I'd do a 10% water change each day until you get your Seachem ammonia badge. Place the badge deep into the tank. Lights on top of the tank can interfere with the badge functioning properly. When viewing the badge use a flashlight to illuminate it from behind or the side to get an accurate color to show.
-Remember to add in the copper to the new mixed water before adding to the tank. You do not want the copper level in the tank to drop below the therapeutic levels even for a moment. And yes, do not add products like Prime to copper treated water. It creates a toxic mix.
-Aqueon Pro heaters are awesome. No glass to break. Very reliable.
- bleach is good for getting rid of the aquarium bio-film. I like to follow the bleaching with a wipe down with vinegar. It neutralizes any copper when cleaning/taking down a QT. Rinse with water and let dry for a few days.

Thanks for the tips. Ammonia Alert by Seachem just arrived. Will get it in the tank right after I do a water change. Going to do 25% as the copper test looked to be on the low side. Really need a keen eye with the Seachem test to discern if the level is .3 or .35 where the effective range begins. Going to get it up close to .5ppm and start the count over today.

 

[Big G]

Really need a keen eye

Try squinting your eyes a bit when looking at the test sample. My wife is an artist and she taught me that trick to seeing very slight color differences when doing comparisons. Happy New Year!

 

[PeterG]

Try squinting your eyes a bit when looking at the test sample. My wife is an artist and she taught me that trick to seeing very slight color differences when doing comparisons. Happy New Year!

Thanks, I'll give squinting a try. I was getting what I considered a low reading but in looking over the directions again it says to dose 20 drops per 10.5 gal and then repeat in 48 hrs and "final copper concentration is .5mg/l" I'll have to retest in 48hrs.