Fish Dying - Followup

[PeterG]

Orig post here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-died-what-to-do-now.344831/

Two Tangs I introduced into my DT died in less than two weeks, both within 24hrs of each other. General concensus was was either stress or poss Ich or velvet. Now 5 days later one of my Bangai Cardinals is missing and my Christmas Wrasse is also MIA. Neither one showed up for the evening feeding.

Unless both show up for the morning feeding I’m fearing the worst here and have decided to buy a 10-20 gal Aquarium Kit from Petco or Pet Supermarket to set up as a hospital/QT tank. I know I have to remove all the fish and QT them for a long period and keep my DT fallow. I understand my corals and invertebrates should be fine in the DT.

Questions: Do I do a freshwater dip before putting the fish into QT?
What do I need to get to medicate the fish in QT?
I know I need to make new salt water for the DT, anything else?
Beyond keeping the DT tank fallow for 76 days is there anything else I need to do to insure the DT tank is safe?
What medications should I keep on hand?

 

[PeterG]

PS: I'm new to the hobby and kind of freaking out a bit over this so bear with me if I ask any stupid or redundant follow-up questions.

 

[Maritimer]

We'll try and get you through this.

Given that velvet is suspected, there are three basic things in the protocol for that disease. First step is a freshwater dip, which provides some immediate relief, but won't eliminate the disease. Melypr1985 created a video that outlines the process beautifully, you can find it here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.286639/#post-3487082

Second would be a dip in Acriflavin, such as is found in Ruby Reef Rally. It's an antiseptic that'll help to prevent secondary infection. Roughly 75-90 minutes, as outlined in the second post of Humblefish's thread on the disease and treatment, here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499399

Third, if you can get it, should be Chloroqine Phosphate - it's not always easy to come by, as in the U.S., it's only available by prescription. If you can't get CP, use copper. In most cases, copper should be dosed gradually, building up over a period of several days, but with velvet you'll want to ramp it up quickly, and ideally reach therapeutic levels within 36-48 hours. Either copper or CP will only kill dinospores that are floating/swimming in the water column, seeking a fish to infest. They'll have no effect on the parasites already on the fish, so the fish will have to "weather the storm" until the parasites drop away (a few days). Copper or CP in the water will prevent the fish from being reinfected. If you've got a second quarantine tank that you can set up at least ten feet from the first - and ten feet from the display (prevents aerosol transmission), you can move _only_the_fish_ to that tank after 14 days or so. If not, then leave the fish in the QT they're in, under medication for 30 days.

You'll want a Seachem ammonia badge, as your liquid test kits won't read correctly with copper in the water, and a copper test kit appropriate for the copper formulation you choose. (Seachem for _ionic_ copper, such as Cupramine; API for _chelated_ copper, such as Coppersafe - which is what I use.) Use the test kit to ensure that you're at therapeutic levels - don't just trust the dosage on the back of the bottle.

~Bruce

 

[PeterG]

We'll try and get you through this.

Thanks for the prompt reply. .

Given that velvet is suspected, there are three basic things in the protocol for that disease. First step is a freshwater dip, which provides some immediate relief, but won't eliminate the disease. Melypr1985 created a video that outlines the process beautifully, you can find it here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.286639/#post-3487082

This part seems easy enough to do.

Second would be a dip in Acriflavin, such as is found in Ruby Reef Rally. It's an antiseptic that'll help to prevent secondary infection. Roughly 75-90 minutes, as outlined in the second post of Humblefish's thread on the disease and treatment, here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499399

Is something my LFS would have? If not I'll have to order it online and make take a few days (esp. with Xmas coming up). Do the fish have that long?

Third, if you can get it, should be Chloroqine Phosphate - it's not always easy to come by, as in the U.S., it's only available by prescription. If you can't get CP, use copper. In most cases, copper should be dosed gradually, building up over a period of several days, but with velvet you'll want to ramp it up quickly, and ideally reach therapeutic levels within 36-48 hours. Either copper or CP will only kill dinospores that are floating/swimming in the water column, seeking a fish to infest. They'll have no effect on the parasites already on the fish, so the fish will have to "weather the storm" until the parasites drop away (a few days). Copper or CP in the water will prevent the fish from being reinfected. If you've got a second quarantine tank that you can set up at least ten feet from the first - and ten feet from the display (prevents aerosol transmission), you can move _only_the_fish_ to that tank after 14 days or so. If not, then leave the fish in the QT they're in, under medication for 30 days.

My wife handles all our vet needs. Again with the Holidays this make take some time Should I dose with copper assuming my LFS has that on hand?

You'll want a Seachem ammonia badge, as your liquid test kits won't read correctly with copper in the water, and a copper test kit appropriate for the copper formulation you choose. (Seachem for _ionic_ copper, such as Cupramine; API for _chelated_ copper, such as Coppersafe - which is what I use.) Use the test kit to ensure that you're at therapeutic levels - don't just trust the dosage on the back of the bottle.

So the copper test kit is based on which type of copper is available?

~Bruce

 

[Maritimer]

There's a good possibility that your LFS has Acriflavin - if not, skip that step.

Use the copper if it's what you can get - velvet, as you've discovered, does not waste time.

Yes - Seachem test kit if you decide to use ionic copper, API test kit if you use chelated copper.

~Bruce

 

[PeterG]

Bruce, Thanks so much for your input. No one else has chimed in so I'm assuming the most R2R members respect and agree with your advice.
OK, back home with a 20 gal Aquaon kit. Only $75 at a local pet shop - includes light, heater, filter, etc.
Also picked up a bottle of Ruby Reef Rally and some Cupramine. Making new saltwater now.
Questions: Do I do the Rally dip in tank water or does it have to be uncontaminated new water?
Do I wait til the QT is ready before capturing fish and starting the dipping process? Doesn't seem to make sense to dip now and then put that in DT right?
Does the salt water really have to mix for 24hrs before I can use it?
From what I gather, there is no "cycling" period when setting up a QT tank. Is this correct?
Read some stuff on the Ruby Reef site saying that their Rally along with their Kick-Ich will cure everything without having to remove fish. I'm guessing this is hype or members here would be singing it's praises.
Anything else I'm missing?

 

[Smo]

Bruce is an expert and I am sure he will chime in if I get this wrong...
Do I do the Rally dip in tank water or does it have to be uncontaminated new water? Use the freshly mixed salt water at the same temperature and salinity as your DT water. You want to minimize transferring any free floating parasites. Mix 2/3 tsp per gallon. Be sure to aerate heavily both prior to and during the bath. A 5 min fresh water dip prior to the acriflavine bath would also offer temporary relief and buy you some time. Use RODI water with a splash of freshly mixed sea water to match ph. It too needs to be at the same temperature as the DT and needs to be aerated.
Do I wait til the QT is ready before capturing fish and starting the dipping process? Yes, the QT needs to be set up so the fish can be placed in fresh sea water at the same temperature and salinity as the DT.
Does the salt water really have to mix for 24hrs before I can use it? No. Most salts should mix properly within an hour or so. 30 minutes in an emergency. Be sure it is well aerated.
From what I gather, there is no "cycling" period when setting up a QT tank. Is this correct? No, this is not correct. The QT has to cycle unless you make massive water changes every couple of days or so to control ammonia. Use an ammonia badge to monitor. The DT cycling can be accelerated by adding bacteria-in-a-bottle. I usually seed an air driven sponge in a bucket with half the bottle to enable the bacteria to adhere. In your case you do not have the time. Add the bacteria while you are prepping the QT for the fish. Monitor ammonia closely and be prepared to make water changes.
Cupramine has a therapeutic range of 0.35 to 0.5 ppm. Use a Seachem or Salifert test kit. Normally, you would want to slowly ramp it up over a 5-7 day period. In your case you may have to accelerate somewhat. It will be a balance between shocking the fish with Cu and slowing the velvet before it becomes fatal. The other thing you could do is gradually lower the QT salinity to say, 1.015. This will help increase the oxygen content and help the fish breath. You can lower salinity pretty quick (a day or two) but raise it very slowly (over a week or two) when the fish appear normal again.
Good luck.

 

[Smo]

And don't believe the marketing hype. There is no reliable cure for Ich or velvet in a DT. The DT will need to remain fallow (no fish) for six weeks for the velvet to die off. Better to wait 76 days to ensure you have killed off the Ich too. Be sure your QT is at least 10 ft away from the DT to prevent airborne contamination. You need separate maintenance utensils for both DT and QT. Also be sure to wash your hands and dry well prior to working in the other tank.

 

[PeterG]

Bruce is an expert and I am sure he will chime in if I get this wrong...
Do I do the Rally dip in tank water or does it have to be uncontaminated new water? Use the freshly mixed salt water at the same temperature and salinity as your DT water. You want to minimize transferring any free floating parasites. Mix 2/3 tsp per gallon. Be sure to aerate heavily both prior to and during the bath. A 5 min fresh water dip prior to the acriflavine bath would also offer temporary relief and buy you some time. Use RODI water with a splash of freshly mixed sea water to match ph. It too needs to be at the same temperature as the DT and needs to be aerated.
Do I wait til the QT is ready before capturing fish and starting the dipping process? Yes, the QT needs to be set up so the fish can be placed in fresh sea water at the same temperature and salinity as the DT.
Does the salt water really have to mix for 24hrs before I can use it? No. Most salts should mix properly within an hour or so. 30 minutes in an emergency. Be sure it is well aerated.
From what I gather, there is no "cycling" period when setting up a QT tank. Is this correct? No, this is not correct. The QT has to cycle unless you make massive water changes every couple of days or so to control ammonia. Use an ammonia badge to monitor. The DT cycling can be accelerated by adding bacteria-in-a-bottle. I usually seed an air driven sponge in a bucket with half the bottle to enable the bacteria to adhere. In your case you do not have the time. Add the bacteria while you are prepping the QT for the fish. Monitor ammonia closely and be prepared to make water changes.
Cupramine has a therapeutic range of 0.35 to 0.5 ppm. Use a Seachem or Salifert test kit. Normally, you would want to slowly ramp it up over a 5-7 day period. In your case you may have to accelerate somewhat. It will be a balance between shocking the fish with Cu and slowing the velvet before it becomes fatal. The other thing you could do is gradually lower the QT salinity to say, 1.015. This will help increase the oxygen content and help the fish breath. You can lower salinity pretty quick (a day or two) but raise it very slowly (over a week or two) when the fish appear normal again.
Good luck.

Thanks Smo
I'll have to get some bacteria in a bottle unless I can use the same bacteria I add to my Koi pond. Here’s a link: https://theponddigger.com/product/the-pond-digger-all-season-beneficial-pond-bacteria/

Also need to get an Ammonia badge and Copper test kit. LFS where I bought supplies only had the ATI test kit.

To lower the Salinity do I just add RO/DI water a little at a time and test? And then raise it by adding saltwater when do a topoff.

If I can get my Vet to write an Rx for Chloroquine Phosphate, should I switch to that once I get it or just stick with the Cupramine?
Kind of figured trying to cure in the DT was just kicking the can down the road for awhile. Gonna set up the QT out in the garage. I'm in Florida so can do this in winter; In summer would need a chiller.

 

[Smo]

You are very welcome. We have all been there.
The pond bacteria will be fresh water--different from the strain we need in our salt water tanks.
I am not familiar with the ATI kit, but others may be.
To lower salinity, yes, just remove salt water and slowly pour in fresh RODI. Be sure any water you replace has been pre-treated with the same concentration of meds, either CU or CP. You don't want the QT concentration to drop during water changes--even for an instant.
To raise salinity, drain off tank water and replace with fresh salt water at a high salinity or you could just use regular salt water to top off from evaporation.
CP would be ideal because you could plop your fish directly into a therapeutic level but I don't think you have the time to get an Rx and then receive the dosage--especially over the holidays. Your call on switching later. You would have to remove the Cu first. This would mean having to set up another QT with fresh water and the CP. You would not want your fish to be in water below a therapeutic level even for an instant or the clock (notional 30 days) starts over.

 

[PeterG]

Smo, Bruce suggested I use either a Seachem or Salifert test kit as the ATI one only works for Chelated Copper and I got the Cupramine which is ionic copper. (See his first post for a better explanation).
I can get started before I get the bottled bacteria right? With the holiday coming I prob wont be able to get it & and the ammonia badge until Tues, more likely Wed of next week.

Also assuming that the 30 day clock starts ticking when I get the last fish in the QT tank not the first one. Any tips for catching the more elusive guys? I'd hate to have to remove all the live rock.

 

[4FordFamily]

Bruce is 100% spot on.

The only thing I’ll add is do not use ammonia detoxifying products (prime or Amquel) in conjunction with copper, as it will kill your fish.

 

[Smo]

Yes, get started soonest. With light feedings you should be able to go up to 3 days in an uncycled QT before ammonia becomes a problem. To reduce risk, start some healthy water changes starting at the 48 hour point. Although most ammonia test kits are somewhat unreliable with Cu in the water, I have had good results using my Red Sea test kit. Mind you--only a few data points. So you need to get a badge or the Seachem MultiTest ammonia kit works well too.
The 30 day clock starts when all fish are at a therapeutic level of Cu or CP in the QT. The 76 day clock on the DT begins when the last fish is removed.

 

[4FordFamily]

For bacteria in a bottle dr tims is my preference, but bio spira works as well. They’ll kickstart the cycle well, just monitor with the ammonia badge.

You’ll need some sort of sponge for the bacteria to colonize.

 

[Big G]

Any tips for catching the more elusive guys? I'd hate to have to remove all the live rock.

Another R2R member posted an interesting method I have not tried yet. When the tank is dark, wait a couple of hours and then use bright flashlight to find and then direct at the fish. According to the OP the fish will remain motionless while you net them. Haven't tried it myself. But time is of the essence with velvet. Might be worth a try.

 

[Smo]

In your case the most expeditious method would be to remove rock work as required. A pain but reliable method. Good opportunity to re-landscape.

 

[PeterG]

For bacteria in a bottle dr tims is my preference, but bio spira works as well. They’ll kickstart the cycle well, just monitor with the ammonia badge.

You’ll need some sort of sponge for the bacteria to colonize.

I'm going to see what if any is available at my LFS tomorrow. Any special type of sponge or instructions to colonize?

Another R2R member posted an interesting method I have not tried yet. When the tank is dark, wait a couple of hours and then use bright flashlight to find and then direct at the fish. According to the OP the fish will remain motionless while you net them. Haven't tried it myself. But time is of the essence with velvet. Might be worth a try.

Thanks for the tip, I'll have to give it a try.

Yes, get started soonest. With light feedings you should be able to go up to 3 days in an uncycled QT before ammonia becomes a problem. To reduce risk, start some healthy water changes starting at the 48 hour point. Although most ammonia test kits are somewhat unreliable with Cu in the water, I have had good results using my Red Sea test kit. Mind you--only a few data points. So you need to get a badge or the Seachem MultiTest ammonia kit works well too.
The 30 day clock starts when all fish are at a therapeutic level of Cu or CP in the QT. The 76 day clock on the DT begins when the last fish is removed.

I make my own RO/DI so water changes are no problem. Been using the Red Sea Ammonia kit but will get the recommended one asap.

In your case the most expeditious method would be to remove rock work as required. A pain but reliable method. Good opportunity to re-landscape.

Agree on the landscaping, but problem is many of my coral frags are glued to the rocks complicating removal. Hopefully I'll be able to net everyone without having to disrupt the setup

 

[4FordFamily]

I'm going to see what if any is available at my LFS tomorrow. Any special type of sponge or instructions to colonize?


Thanks for the tip, I'll have to give it a try.


I make my own RO/DI so water changes are no problem. Been using the Red Sea Ammonia kit but will get the recommended one asap.


Agree on the landscaping, but problem is many of my coral frags are glued to the rocks complicating removal. Hopefully I'll be able to net everyone without having to disrupt the setup

Any “sponge-like” material will work, I’ve used filter floss as well, just make sure you ask if whatever you select will absorb meds, if so don’t get it (such as polyfiber pads, avoid them).

 

[Smo]

To be clear...what ever material you select has to have water flowing thru it...either a power filter or air driven.

 

[PeterG]

Well I got everyone thru the dipping and into the QT tank. Lost my Banggai Cardinals and Clowns along the way.
I'm using a 20 gal QT tank and following dosing instructions on the Cupramine approx 2ml to the tank. My lfs did not have either the Seachem or the Salifert test kit so I've got to wing it til one arrives after Xmas. Also have to wait for the bacteria and Ammonia badge.

My six-line wrasse and Christmas wrasse were looking very distressed so I did a 25% water change to dial back the dosage til they respond. Kind of wishing I had gone with the milder Coppersafe as the fish store did have an API test kit.

Can I switch to the Coppersafe and if so do I have to do another complete water change?

If I stick with the Cupramine the treatment lasts 14 days. Do I have to add copper every day or does it stay in the tank.

Had to remove all my rock & corals to capture fish. What a nightmare trying to get everything back in place. I thought taking a few photos of the layout would suffice but nooo.. Wish I had just laid everything out in the order I removed it rather than separating rocks with coral attached & rocks without. finally gave up trying to duplicate and settled for placing rocks based on light & flow needs of the attached corals. Not sure I like it but hope it will grow on me.