Fish have had velvet for 2 months, no deaths

[Tikosyn]

So I know a lot of people are going to say that is not possible, but I am 99% sure my tank has velvet...AGAIN. I made the same mistake of not QT'ing, thought divers den would be safe, but of course I got burned...again.

This strain of velvet does not seem to be as bad as the last strain I had, the last one killed fish in a matter of a day or two. Here's what I know: I have done two, 3 dose rounds of prazipro when I thought it was flukes, fish are still flashing, scratching. My butterflyfish has white dots all over him including his eyes, foxface has a few white dots every few days, no other fish showing physical dots but all are scratching/flashing.

My question is, similar to ich, does a velvet strain ever die out? My fish are all still eating and seem to be tolerating the disease somehow, perhaps it is because they were all exposed to the last much more deadly strain and survived. I solved this problem last time by dosing chloroquine phosphate into my display, basically had a tank crash lost all my inverts, etc, but velvet was cured.

I don't believe this is ich because the dots are way too small and widespread on my butterflyfish. My tank is 160g with 170lbs of rock, hence why I can't fathom trying to catch my fish and why I just dosed the tank last time.

 

[JenniferMcK]

So I know a lot of people are going to say that is not possible, but I am 99% sure my tank has velvet...AGAIN. I made the same mistake of not QT'ing, thought divers den would be safe, but of course I got burned...again.

This strain of velvet does not seem to be as bad as the last strain I had, the last one killed fish in a matter of a day or two. Here's what I know: I have done two, 3 dose rounds of prazipro when I thought it was flukes, fish are still flashing, scratching. My butterflyfish has white dots all over him including his eyes, foxface has a few white dots every few days, no other fish showing physical dots but all are scratching/flashing.

My question is, similar to ich, does a velvet strain ever die out? My fish are all still eating and seem to be tolerating the disease somehow, perhaps it is because they were all exposed to the last much more deadly strain and survived. I solved this problem last time by dosing chloroquine phosphate into my display, basically had a tank crash lost all my inverts, etc, but velvet was cured.

I don't believe this is ich because the dots are way too small and widespread on my butterflyfish. My tank is 160g with 170lbs of rock, hence why I can't fathom trying to catch my fish and why I just dosed the tank last time.

In order for ick or velvet to die out, your tank needs to be fallow for 76 days for ick and I believe 45 days for velvet. Even when there are no symptoms showing on the fish, the fish carry it on them and so helping the ick and velvet cycle continue. Unless you get them out asap into a qt and started treatment with copper, all fish in your dt are eventually going to die out 1 by 1. I went through this with the first 3 fish I had, until I started quarantining all new fish with copper and other meds. Hope this helps

 

[JenniferMcK]

So I know a lot of people are going to say that is not possible, but I am 99% sure my tank has velvet...AGAIN. I made the same mistake of not QT'ing, thought divers den would be safe, but of course I got burned...again.

This strain of velvet does not seem to be as bad as the last strain I had, the last one killed fish in a matter of a day or two. Here's what I know: I have done two, 3 dose rounds of prazipro when I thought it was flukes, fish are still flashing, scratching. My butterflyfish has white dots all over him including his eyes, foxface has a few white dots every few days, no other fish showing physical dots but all are scratching/flashing.

My question is, similar to ich, does a velvet strain ever die out? My fish are all still eating and seem to be tolerating the disease somehow, perhaps it is because they were all exposed to the last much more deadly strain and survived. I solved this problem last time by dosing chloroquine phosphate into my display, basically had a tank crash lost all my inverts, etc, but velvet was cured.

I don't believe this is ich because the dots are way too small and widespread on my butterflyfish. My tank is 160g with 170lbs of rock, hence why I can't fathom trying to catch my fish and why I just dosed the tank last time.

I didn't see the last paragraph about trying to catch them. Ive never used one but I've seen fish traps that you can use. Or you can try turning the lights out for a few hrs then take a flashlight pointing it at the fish and carefully netting them with the flashlight pointing at them. Supposedly the light mesmerized them making it easier to catch them.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Among other things,

Feed more clams (yes, this is a minor PITA, but half of our fish are now used to picking clam bits off of my fingertips. )

Feed live blackworms.

Follow some of the "immunity" threads.

The short version is that feeding extremely good foods and using a UV unit to help cut down on water borne pathogens *could* be enough to keep your fish healthy.

I don't have a UV unit.
About once every other month I will need to add a capful or 2 of Herbtana to our 75 gallon tank if I see any of the fish flashing.

No guarantees.

From reading of the experience of much smarter people than me, this system will never, ever work with acanthurus species tangs.
There are probably of plenty of other delicate fish that are seldom seen at your LFS that will not survive in this type of system.

With uronema, brook, velvet and other diseases becoming more prevalent, this may turn into a complete fail as you add more corals, inverts and fish to your tank.



Plan B.

Do a proper quarantine for each and every item that you add to your tank in the future.


Remove the live rock and sand from your system into a separate smaller storage system and let it be fallow for 76 days.

Keep your fish in the main tank with a small pcv forest to hide in, live in and spend the extra money on dosing a larger volume of water.

( You need to take the live rock out to catch the fish anyway so this would just be easier but (much?) more expensive in medications. A larger volume of water will also help you control ammonia issues.)

What type of fish do you currently have in your tank?

 

[ngoodermuth]

I would render a second opinion and say the velvet is the same strain, returned. My guess is that the CP dose added last time SUPPRESSED the velvet, but did not cure it... which is why the fish are showing some resistance.

CP, while a very convenient alternative to copper, does not work so well in tanks with an active bio-filter. The bacteria will actually consume the medication, leaving the water column less than therapeutic. Even in QT, it’s recommended not to use any biological filtration... but rather use ammonia reducers/ waterchanges as needed to combat ammonia and waste build-up. Ideally, the tank should be a sterile as possible for the duration of treatment.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I know it’s not an answer you’re going to want to hear... but I think if I were you I would just rip off the bandaid, set-up a QT (check craigslist for some old, big freshwater tanks on the cheap) and start catching/moving fish.

Once you’ve caught them all, you can treat properly and allow your display to run fallow. There will be much less stress and money down the drain in the long run, IMHO. QT new fish moving forward, and enjoy the peace of mind

As mentioned above, there are threads here that also discuss various management techniques you could try... but just remember that there are drawback to living with parasites, including difficulty adding new fish (much more difficult with velvet than ich).

 

[robert]

Not everything that looks like ich or velvet is ich or velvet...

Check your fishes fins - are the spots on the fins as well - or only on the body...I suspect the fins are clear...just a guess...massive numbers of spots. So many that if it were ich you would think the fish would certainly be dead in days - but no the fish lives on.

In two months, the fishes immunity would have resolved the issue - certainly for ich - velvet would have killed by now.

I've run up against this before and it didn't end well - Fresh water dip/chloroquine/metro/parazipro/malichite - nothing made a dent...ultimately killed four fish. A few, that showed minimal signs did recover on their own, and the majority never showed any signs at all.

My best guess is fungal - it appears as fine white dots - smaller than ich - maybe a little larger than velvet - it never showed on on fins like ich and did not congest the gills like velvet and many many spots. Fish continue to eat until the end but are clearly stressed. It took months before the fish finally succumbed.

My best advice - get those fish out - it is contagious - I suspect through other fish ingesting the infected fishes fecal matter. Once resolved - I've added new fish without issue...

I'm very curious as I've seen nothing quite like it...I too immediately thought velvet - but I've seen and beat that many times - this one had me pulling my hair out.

Please - keep us posted.

 

[Tikosyn]

Current stock list:

1 zoster butterfly
1 foxface
2 snowflake clowns
1 bellus angel
1 masked swallowtail angel
1 melanarus wrasse (suspected velvet patient zero)
Various snails and shrimp.

I am very certain this is not the same strain of velvet, my fish had zero symptoms for over 8 weeks until I decided to get the melnarus wrasse, then all of the sudden white spots and flashing/scratching/swimming into powerheads occasionally but this is only done by the foxface. Another issue with removing the fish is my rock structures are glued, so I would have to forcefully remove the entire structure and would never get it back the way I had it. Only good part is my tank only has ONE coral in it, so I don't have to worry about removing corals. It has been about one year since I started this tank and I really had a different view of how this was going to look after a year. Quite depressed but I have brought it upon myself once again.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Very possible melanurus brought it, they often don’t appear symptomatic (thick slime coat) and are often housed in unmedicated invert systems in the supply chain due to their need for sand to burrow. They are notorious “typhoid mary” fish as @4FordFamily calls them

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Unfortunately each wave of velvet is going to get stronger and stronger. There are fish that have an immunity to it but odds of all your fish being immune are slim to none.

Your current fish have had this for 2 months no

Current stock list:

1 zoster butterfly
1 foxface
2 snowflake clowns
1 bellus angel
1 masked swallowtail angel
1 melanarus wrasse (suspected velvet patient zero)
Various snails and shrimp.

I am very certain this is not the same strain of velvet, my fish had zero symptoms for over 8 weeks until I decided to get the melnarus wrasse, then all of the sudden white spots and flashing/scratching/swimming into powerheads occasionally but this is only done by the foxface. Another issue with removing the fish is my rock structures are glued, so I would have to forcefully remove the entire structure and would never get it back the way I had it. Only good part is my tank only has ONE coral in it, so I don't have to worry about removing corals. It has been about one year since I started this tank and I really had a different view of how this was going to look after a year. Quite depressed but I have brought it upon myself once again.

What about buying a 55G set up on Craigslist (cheap) with the hob filter, heater, etc and just go on a fish catching mission. QT them leave the DT fallow for 76 days and then you’ll know you have a clean tank.

 

[Tikosyn]

I have a spare 75g I am not currently using, so I could definitely do that and sadly that is likely what it is going to come to. One issue, the melanarus wrasse needs sand and also is apparently not tolerant of chloroquine. So I would have to have two QT tanks going one with chloroquine and one with cupramine just for the wrasse? Ugh

 

[JenniferMcK]

I have a spare 75g I am not currently using, so I could definitely do that and sadly that is likely what it is going to come to. One issue, the melanarus wrasse needs sand and also is apparently not tolerant of chloroquine. So I would have to have two QT tanks going one with chloroquine and one with cupramine just for the wrasse? Ugh

If you choose copper to treat, you can put all fish in same qt. It would make it a bit easier. Also chelated copper is a little less harsh on wrasse than cupramine, if you can get your hands on some, and easier to keep within therapeutic range. Just my experience. Good luck!

 

[MnFish1]

So I know a lot of people are going to say that is not possible, but I am 99% sure my tank has velvet...AGAIN. I made the same mistake of not QT'ing, thought divers den would be safe, but of course I got burned...again.

This strain of velvet does not seem to be as bad as the last strain I had, the last one killed fish in a matter of a day or two. Here's what I know: I have done two, 3 dose rounds of prazipro when I thought it was flukes, fish are still flashing, scratching. My butterflyfish has white dots all over him including his eyes, foxface has a few white dots every few days, no other fish showing physical dots but all are scratching/flashing.

My question is, similar to ich, does a velvet strain ever die out? My fish are all still eating and seem to be tolerating the disease somehow, perhaps it is because they were all exposed to the last much more deadly strain and survived. I solved this problem last time by dosing chloroquine phosphate into my display, basically had a tank crash lost all my inverts, etc, but velvet was cured.

I don't believe this is ich because the dots are way too small and widespread on my butterflyfish. My tank is 160g with 170lbs of rock, hence why I can't fathom trying to catch my fish and why I just dosed the tank last time.

Its not impossible - but improbable that your fish have all developed partial immunity to velvet (or whatever it is) - and it just keeps up its lifecycle - so they always look infected. Do you use UV Ozone or any other micro filtration - that helps keep numbers in check?

Frankly without a tissue biopsy (under a microscope) its impossible to tell for sure if its velvet - especially since its not behaving like velvet.

I would be careful adding new fish to the tank until its discovered what it is or gone btw

 

[ngoodermuth]

Halichoerus wrasse aren’t as sensitive to CP as flasher wrasses (flashers don’t tolerate it at all), but they can have appetite suppression. When I treated my two fairy wrasses with CP they began to refuse food (only eating maybe a bite or two each per day) around days 8-10. Luckily, I only had to get them through 15 days, since I was planning to transfer to another tank.

If I were in your shoes, I would probably just do 30 days of copper on all of them and call it a day. But, you could try the CP and then always switch to copper if you begin to see issues.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

I have a spare 75g I am not currently using, so I could definitely do that and sadly that is likely what it is going to come to. One issue, the melanarus wrasse needs sand and also is apparently not tolerant of chloroquine. So I would have to have two QT tanks going one with chloroquine and one with cupramine just for the wrasse? Ugh

I would put everyone in the same tank and use Copper Power at 1.75ppm being cheleted it’s a lot easier on fish and has a larger therapeutic window.

 

[MnFish1]

Unfortunately each wave of velvet is going to get stronger and stronger. There are fish that have an immunity to it but odds of all your fish being immune are slim to none.

Your current fish have had this for 2 months no


What about buying a 55G set up on Craigslist (cheap) with the hob filter, heater, etc and just go on a fish catching mission. QT them leave the DT fallow for 76 days and then you’ll know you have a clean tank.

I agree with this - to me his tank is not behaving like velvet - or he is really lucky and the remaining fish (do we know if any died) - Are immune or partially immune. In which case it should be ok to let it be. That said - introducing any more fish would be difficult to say the least - QT would seem to be the best option

 

[Tikosyn]

Thanks for all the comments everyone. It's weird, at first I thought it was impossible that it was velvet because who has velvet where ALL fish survive for 2 months with it? That just doesn't happen right? All I know is the small white spots on my butterflyfish certainly look like it and I notice some flashing/scratching by almost all of the fish along with twitching occasionally. My swallowtail angel goes to the surface frequently. To be honest I am still quite perplexed. I'll post some pics in the AM