Flasher and fairy wrasses dying in hypo-QT

swensos

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I've had terrible luck with flasher wrasses and lubbock's fairy wrasses in my QT. They eat well for a month or two, then one will hide for two days, breathe heavy, then die. Other fish and wrasse in the same tank will survive and move onto my DT.

I do thirty days of hypo (12 ppt) to treat ich/flukes in my well-established 20 long with cured rock, heater , ATO, and a koralia pump. I slowly lower and raise the salinity before and after the hyper using a drip change of heated water. I feed metro food for a week or two if I see symptoms of internal parasites. I have a thermometer and ammonia badge to monitor.

In every batch of fish, my flasher and lubbocks wrasses will be active and eating for even a month, then they kind of lay down and die two days later. Never at the same time. Sometimes they'll die weeks apart.

In the current batch, I had a blue flasher, mccoskers, lubbocks, and ruby-head. They've been in hypo for a little over 30 days. The lubbocks broke his back, so I put him in an acclimation box in the QT. He survived in there for more than two weeks while lying on his side, which is surprising, because if there was a disease in the tank, you would think he would die in a day or two, but he just kept living. While the lubbock's was slowly dying from not being able to catch food, my blue flasher suddenly started hiding. Two or three days later he was dead, no sign of any fin damage (lubbocks still alive). About a week later, a couple days after the lubbocks finally died from starvation, the mccoskers began to hide and stop eating. I've also never seen any aggression between the ruby-head and the mccoskers. The mccoskers actually used to chase the larger lubbocks and blue flasher, but only briefly.

I managed to catch the mccosker, who was laying on his side and breathing heavy (the koralia is pointed at the surface in the tank so I get a lot of gas exchange). Today, unsure of what to do, I gave him a 90 minute bath of Ruby Reef Rally. He seemed to become slightly more active during and after the bath.

I just finished the bath. Flukes and ich can't survive hypo. It's doubtful velvet would not show symptoms on any fish and take months to kill only flashers and lubbocks. Should I treat with the trifecta of antibiotics? Thanks for any help, sorry I included a lot of info. #reefsquad @Humblefish @melypr1985 @ngoodermuth @4FordFamily
 

JaimeAdams

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I'm not sure what is going on with your fish. There is one thing that you are mistaken on though. There are strains of parasites that can indeed survive hypo lower than your fish can.
 
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swensos

swensos

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I'm not sure what is going on with your fish. There is one thing that you are mistaken on though. There are strains of parasites that can indeed survive hypo lower than your fish can.
Right, like Velvet. Is there another you're thinking of?

One symptom is while they hide they will occasionally gulp, like there is something in their throat.
 
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swensos

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I'm not sure what is going on with your fish. There is one thing that you are mistaken on though. There are strains of parasites that can indeed survive hypo lower than your fish can.
And just for clarity: I use hypo to treat ich and flukes and for its ease on the fish's immune system. I know there are no "cure-alls." But I wish there were... :(
 

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There are also hypo resistant strains of Ich. Not sure that's whats going on with your fish though.

Wrasse can be pretty resistant to velvet due to their thick slime coat so I would not rule out velvet especially in light of the improvement with the Rally bath.

Let's see what our infectious disease expert thinks. @Humblefish
 
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swensos

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After watching him after the Rally bath, he did come out to eat and swam around a little bit before tucking under a rock. There are some slighlty pale spots (but not "spots", more like patches where a scale was rubbed) on his head, but those could be from the hiding under a rock, being chased, and being caught for the bath. Would treating with antibiotics help or could it hurt? I hate dosing for mystery diseases.
 

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I hate QT deaths where the fish has been acting and looking totally normally for weeks and then just starts breathing heavily and dies. I think people blame infection far too often when trying to explain this. My hunch is that 1. there are undetected waste materials that build up in the water that gradually cause toxicity to one or more organs, or 2. the treatment itself, whether medication or just hyposalinity, causes gradual toxicity to one or more organs. In either case, the fish eventually dies of undiagnosed liver failure, kidney failure, respiratory failure, cardiac failure, etc. QT, even when done well, has inherent risks; for some fish, sending them to the DT after a very abbreviated QT of just 14 days, to assess for any visible disease or other signs of illness, with or without medication, might lead to higher survival rates.
 
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swensos

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These are after the bath.
e10053b2ddf16321a029ecf2d8743903.jpg
d2dfb7f3e3868b93b368d3e7442fc997.jpg
8ca6c196e1a1980cc220610ca502e7ba.jpg
e65957d0bbbd37fa5d43f5ca9252e42e.jpg
 
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swensos

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Also, I'm remembering the blue flasher showed dark patches on his scales about a week before he started hiding. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures. I'm remembering things while I'm thinking.
 

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Also, that lothey do fine for a couple weeks and from what you've said, don't show obvious outward signs of disease, my concern would go immediately to all that algae built up in that QT. It will be detrimental to CO2 removal and Deplete oxygen essentally choking and suffocating some of your fishes.
Maybe? That's my guess.
 
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swensos

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Also, that lothey do fine for a couple weeks and from what you've said, don't show obvious outward signs of disease, my concern would go immediately to all that algae built up in that QT. It will be detrimental to CO2 removal and Deplete oxygen essentally choking and suffocating some of your fishes.
Maybe? That's my guess.
That's funny. I left the algae hoping it would improve water quality and make it so the wrasses would see the glass before crashing into it.

I did think of the CO2 and pH swings from the algae, but dismissed it because I figured I would see concurrent deaths and piping in the morning with improvements of health in the day. I might remove the algae just in case, but how do I do that with the rocks without removing the beneficial bacteria?
 

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That's funny. I left the algae hoping it would improve water quality and make it so the wrasses would see the glass before crashing into it.

I did think of the CO2 and pH swings from the algae, but dismissed it because I figured I would see concurrent deaths and piping in the morning with improvements of health in the day. I might remove the algae just in case, but how do I do that with the rocks without removing the beneficial bacteria?
Just start by removing from glass and bottom by scraping and doing a WC after you suck it out.
 

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I don't think the algae would cause a problem. If it did it would only be lowering O2 and then only at night. Large amounts of algae should greatly reduce CO2 during the day when photosynthesis is going on. At night with no photosynthesis and respiration continuing there could be an O2 drop but with that amount of algae I would think it unlikely if there is any decent amount of surface agitation/flow.
 

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May be exactly right. Just throwing some ideas out. My thinking being that with the fish gasping as described, it may be CO2 poisoning over a few days or weeks and it just ended up possibly suffocating them. I just didn't read there were any real symptoms other than they ate, then they didn't and hid and eventually dead. Not all but his smaller wrasses and such.
Maybe someone more experienced can chime in.
 
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swensos

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Any brainstorming is good. I’m also wondering why the acriflavine bath improved his health, if only momentarily. How does Brooklynella present in other fish?
 

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Flukes and ich can't survive hypo.
not true. Hypo is incredibly difficult to do properly. If the salinity go above 1.009 even for a few minutes it can give the parasite time to continue it's life cycle (even if it's just one of them). There are also hypo-resistant strains of ich as was already pointed out. Hypo is not my favorite method of QT.
One symptom is while they hide they will occasionally gulp, like there is something in their throat.
The gulping could be that they are having difficulty breathing because of a build up of fluid in the gills.
There are some slighlty pale spots (but not "spots", more like patches where a scale was rubbed) on his head
The pale spots could indicate a mild (gram possitive) bacterial infection
I'm remembering the blue flasher showed dark patches on his scales about a week before he started hiding.
Same with the dark patches here. Bacterial infections can present in many ways and some will kill very slowly and others can kill faster than velvet.
I’m also wondering why the acriflavine bath improved his health, if only momentarily.

Remember that acriflavin is an antiseptic. It could be that the bath helped flush the excess fluid out of the fish's gills while also providing temporary relief from any bacterial infection on the fish.

Without any other symptoms to go off of, I would have to conclude that the hypo treatment isn't serving as a fully effective treatment allowing some parasites to continue to live which opens the fish up to suffocation and bacterial infections. It's also important to keep the QT relatively clean. Algae may not be a big deal, but the detritus that builds up in all that can cause issues with water quality and the fish's health by extension. I would suggest keeping the bottom glass cleaner and siphoning out the detritus that builds up down there.
 
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swensos

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not true. Hypo is incredibly difficult to do properly. If the salinity go above 1.009 even for a few minutes it can give the parasite time to continue it's life cycle (even if it's just one of them). There are also hypo-resistant strains of ich as was already pointed out. Hypo is not my favorite method of QT.

The gulping could be that they are having difficulty breathing because of a build up of fluid in the gills.

The pale spots could indicate a mild (gram possitive) bacterial infection

Same with the dark patches here. Bacterial infections can present in many ways and some will kill very slowly and others can kill faster than velvet.


Remember that acriflavin is an antiseptic. It could be that the bath helped flush the excess fluid out of the fish's gills while also providing temporary relief from any bacterial infection on the fish.

Without any other symptoms to go off of, I would have to conclude that the hypo treatment isn't serving as a fully effective treatment allowing some parasites to continue to live which opens the fish up to suffocation and bacterial infections. It's also important to keep the QT relatively clean. Algae may not be a big deal, but the detritus that builds up in all that can cause issues with water quality and the fish's health by extension. I would suggest keeping the bottom glass cleaner and siphoning out the detritus that builds up down there.

Thanks!

I try to do 25% water changes twice a month, but I’ll be more vigilant in sucking out the detritus.

About two hours after the bath, the McCosker began hiding again and breathing deep, so I treated the water with Kanaplex. In the evening, he didn’t eat, so I treated with metroplex.

This morning, he was out in the morning and swimming in the water column as usual and eating. I’ll continue with the kanaplex and metroplex for 10 days, but if it may be a parasite, should I treat with copper after the hypo and antibiotics?
 

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Thanks!

I try to do 25% water changes twice a month, but I’ll be more vigilant in sucking out the detritus.

About two hours after the bath, the McCosker began hiding again and breathing deep, so I treated the water with Kanaplex. In the evening, he didn’t eat, so I treated with metroplex.

This morning, he was out in the morning and swimming in the water column as usual and eating. I’ll continue with the kanaplex and metroplex for 10 days, but if it may be a parasite, should I treat with copper after the hypo and antibiotics?

That's a great improvement!

The copper is up to you. I certainly would, or at least TTM to be safe.
 
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