Help diagnosing flame angel

[Jay Hemdal]

The third option is ich management.

IMO - the flame angel already has too many trophonts on it for management to work. The propagule pressure itself becomes a stressors and overrides all of the management techniques.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you all so much for the quick replies and help! I’m going to do a water change tonight and tomorrow to get the salinity down to 1.009. I added an air stone as well. I’m going to add carbon back to the filter for water clarity. I will continue feeding a variety of food with garlic, nori sheets and look into buying additional vitamins.

Be certain the your specific gravity measuring device is VERY accurate, 1.008 can harm the fish and 1.010 may not cure the disease. You need to be spot on with 1.009
Jay

 

[Seansea]

I wouldnt even lower the salinity that much. Ich is like the flu to a human. A healthy human will fight it just like healthy fish will fight it. Keep the fish fed and happy and he will pull thru.

Dont mess around in the tank a bunch and be constantly smashin your face against the glass either. That is more stressors that will make it worse.

 

[Lavey29]

IMO - the flame angel already has too many trophonts on it for management to work. The propagule pressure itself becomes a stressors and overrides all of the management techniques.
Jay

I defer to your expertise here Sir

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I wouldnt even lower the salinity that much. Ich is like the flu to a human. A healthy human will fight it just like healthy fish will fight it. Keep the fish fed and happy and he will pull thru.

Dont mess around in the tank a bunch and be constantly smashin your face against the glass either. That is more stressors that will make it worse.

Ich is a protozoan and flu is a virus, you can’t make too many strong comparisons between them.
With ich, the propagule pressure (number of theronts in the water) actually cause stress in the fish.
1.009 is the gold standard for hyposalinity treatments, going higher than that is a mistake for treating active infections.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I defer to your expertise here Sir

Just my opinion - when you see more than about 30 trophonts on a fish, the disease is about to enter the geometric progression phase and environmental control methods tend to fail. I can see more than 100 spots on the angel, so I think an active treatment is needed.
Jay

 

[Seansea]

Virus, bacteria protozoan. All sickness. Most healthy species will fight sickness. Unless this fish is really old and on its last limbs a well fed stress free enviroment will help him fight it. Most of the time the cure is worse than the disease and make an already sick fish even sicker.

Op chose your path. There is only one way to learn in this hobby and thats trial and error. I use to go thru the stress.of pulling fish out and stick them in a hospital tank and throw copper in there only to have the fish die anyway. Then i figured just feed heavy and be chill on the tank for a week or so and fish always fought it. And the other fat and happy fish never aquired it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Virus, bacteria protozoan. All sickness. Most healthy species will fight sickness. Unless this fish is really old and on its last limbs a well fed stress free enviroment will help him fight it. Most of the time the cure is worse than the disease and make an already sick fish even sicker.

Op chose your path. There is only one way to learn in this hobby and thats trial and error. I use to go thru the stress.of pulling fish out and stick them in a hospital tank and throw copper in there only to have the fish die anyway. Then i figured just feed heavy and be chill on the tank for a week or so and fish always fought it. And the other fat and happy fish never aquired it.

Please understand, this is not a criticism of your personal opinion. Rather, we make a point of outlining what is generally accepted best husbandry practices for all posts here. The reason why is that this post can be referenced years from now, and people will read it, and take away what they will from it.

Fish don't have strong immune systems, and the cure is not worse than the disease if the fish is at the geometric growth phase of the tomonts as with this one. Take a look at this article on fish immunity:


Immunity in Fish

The ability for a fish to fight off a disease (or not) is based on the level of immunity it has. A physically stressed fish will have a lower immunity level and be more prone to developing disease. However, people tend to rely too much on immunity and they think that if they offer the fish a great diet, it will be (mostly) free of disease. Some people extrapolate that even further and think that if they have a sick fish, if they feed it well, they can cure it (the chicken soup syndrome). The reality is that fish have a less developed immune response than mammals do, and we know that with humans, even the best diet and exercise does not prevent all diseases and in some instances really doesn’t help much at all. Immunity varies between the parasite involved. Bacterial diseases are rarely communicable because the fish have good defense (skin structure) and good immunity against them. Fish don’t have much immunity against some parasites like Neobenedenia flukes.

Innate immunity – this is the fish’s genetic predisposition to being able to fight off infections using its normal antibody system. There are differences seen between species of fish, with the example of Achilles tangs being much more prone to developing Cryptocaryon infections than are yellow tangs. Innate immunity is the baseline level, the starting point and nothing really changes that in a given individual.

Immunity conferred by good diet/environment – Fish with lower stress levels will have better immunity. Keeping the fish in a stable aquarium, with no aggressive tankmates, good water quality and a great diet will help boost its immunity. However, people often fail to understand that the disease organism themselves can be a major stressor, and can override all immunity conferred by a good environment.

Acquired immunity – This type of immunity is mounted by a fish after exposure to (and survival from) some disease outbreak. Antibodies are created that help the fish fight off future infections from that disease organism. Too many times in aquariums, the fish does not survive the disease challenge, so no acquired immunity is possible. In most cases, the only functional benefit for this is seen with sub-lethal viral diseases such as Lymphocystis; a fish that recovers from that disease rarely acquires it again. Wild fish have very little acquired immunity by virtue of not being infected with disease organisms to a high enough degree (or if they are, they get eaten by predators due to their weakened state). Immune responses in fish seems strongest against viruses and least against multi-celled parasites such as flukes. Parasites living on the skin or gills of fish are less exposed to the antibodies, so acquired immunity to protozoans and metazoans such as Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium and flukes is only partial and transient.

This diagram outlines the relationship between host, pathogen and environmental problems. Overlaps indicate problem areas, with the triple overlap in the center showing the almost certainty of disease when all three elements are combined. Notice however, that disease is still possible if hosts and pathogens are combined, even in the absence of any environmental issues. Likewise, environmental problems can harm the host even in the absence of pathogens.

 

[Seansea]

I understand the science behind it. But i can only speak to my own experiences. After having a fish only tank for many years with 23 fish in a 150 i learned the hard way treating fish could be harsh. When a fish i got had ich i just stuck with my heavy feeding schedule and went away on its own while my other well fed and stress free fish did not contract. After doing this i never lost a fish until after adding a lunar wrasse which was a dire mistake that cost me a emporer angel and miniatus grouper. But that is a whole other subject

 

[k2-]

Sometimes ich has tendency to show on new fish and then disappear In few days once they have settled down - stress related - I am not 100% sure if it’s possible to get rid of ich parasite - but other more experienced folks could chime in.

 

[gongshow1988]

Figured I would throw an update out. I maintained 30 days of hypo 1.009. Added a submersible 18 watt UV sterilizer. Fed with Seachem metroplex/focus every other day. I am a heavy feeder btw. Started adding marine Vita Chem once per week to the tank and also every other day a few drops into some food. ICH seems to be gone and has not came back or affected any other fish. Flame Angel is still alive and seems much better. She does seem to be a finicky eater though so that’s a whole other issue I’m working on. But thank you for everyone’s help and advice!

 

[fodsod]

Figured I would throw an update out. I maintained 30 days of hypo 1.009. Added a submersible 18 watt UV sterilizer. Fed with Seachem metroplex/focus every other day. I am a heavy feeder btw. Started adding marine Vita Chem once per week to the tank and also every other day a few drops into some food. ICH seems to be gone and has not came back or affected any other fish. Flame Angel is still alive and seems much better. She does seem to be a finicky eater though so that’s a whole other issue I’m working on. But thank you for everyone’s help and advice!

Glad to hear it worked out.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Figured I would throw an update out. I maintained 30 days of hypo 1.009. Added a submersible 18 watt UV sterilizer. Fed with Seachem metroplex/focus every other day. I am a heavy feeder btw. Started adding marine Vita Chem once per week to the tank and also every other day a few drops into some food. ICH seems to be gone and has not came back or affected any other fish. Flame Angel is still alive and seems much better. She does seem to be a finicky eater though so that’s a whole other issue I’m working on. But thank you for everyone’s help and advice!

It may have worked, good to hear!

A couple of suggestions going forward:

Hyposalinity needs to run for 30 days past the date that you last saw spots (trophonts), you may have cut the time a bit short.

Don't add Vita chem to the water, that only feeds the bacteria.

Don't mix metro/focus unless you calculate the dose properly (0.5 % metro by total weight). If you add too much, it is bitter and the fish won't eat it, not adding enough and it won't offer any benefit. Also, oral medications do not work well for external parasites.

Jay