Hobby grade “quarantine” probably kills more fish than it saves.

[Squidward]

Why do you keep saying that fish with parasites will die when every fish in the sea has parasites and I have a couple of "normal" fish in my tank almost as old as you that are spawning and will probably live another ten years.

I have almost 30 fish in my tank and many of them are pretty old and none have ever been sick.

Quarantine is not proven to do anything except allow fish to become weak and have no immunity to anything. What is the oldest quarantined fish you know of?

I can throw any fish into my tank with any disease and nothing will happen to my other fish.

For many years I asked if anyone wanted to come here and put any diseased fish in my tank. No one came forward. Now that challenge is off the table but that is how sure I am that my fish are immune so I don't have to care about ich, velvet etc like many people seem to have to do.

Try that in your tank.

Cause in the wild fish can swim away and parasites can drop off. Parasites will only multiply in a glass box. You should know this. You're the expert. You've been around long. Don't you know any other veteran aquarist that has kept qurantined fish long? I've only done qurantine since 2019. Only time my fish dealt with copper was maybe through the distrubutors or lfs. I didn't use copper. So how would my fish's immune system suddenly turn to crap when they're happily fed every day and no one's stressed and spreading parasites all around the tank? It's not like they were born in a lab. My fish came from the seas too. So of course they've dealt with parasites already. I'm happy with TTM. That's the only way I've managed to keep the Big 3 ich mangets spotless. Wouldn't do it any other way. I wish I remember the name of the guy who told me about TTM. He was on fb. I'd buy him a beer or two.

 

[WVNed]

The little clumps of dog and cat hair catch the ich in my tank and then it starves to death.

 

[Lasse]

Cause in the wild fish can swim away and parasites can drop off. Parasites will only multiply in a glass box. You should know this.

If so (my bold) - why is this parasite rather common in the wild? I have seen articles from Vietnam with very high percentage infected wild fish. Ich did not develop in an aquarium.

TTM is a good method and if you only use this - I´m with you - but you can´t say that you have an ich free tank the way you have it. You can´t know that for sure. And you will have hundreds of user saying - TTM will not work - you need a prophylactic QT

That's the only way I've managed to keep the Big 3 ich mangets spotless.

That´s good for you and you should be proud of that - but (it is always a but) you can´t say that all others way to achieve this is crap. You have been presented for two aquarium using nearly the same methods (different from yours) that with help of latest technique seems to be ich free. I do not know how many fish you have introduce during this 2 years period but for me it is many in my 5 years aquarium. Fish die or disappear even in my aquarium but I have never have a disease that spread through the population and wipe out my tank. The last year - I have introduced around 10 fishes including a copperband. I have some fish with a short life span (small gobies). I have introduce difficult species - some rare that few know anything about - some known to be tricky (copperband, pipefish and scooter blenny).

IMO - one important thing that i think not have been mentioned before is when fish from different suppliers is mixed. In the 90:ties I was working together with some LFS for freshwater fish around Sweden. At that time we had 2 main wholesalers of fresh water fish and there was a war going on between the LFS who of these was bringing diseases into their shops. The ones that mainly use wholesaler 1 accuse wholesaler 2 for bringing in diseases into their shops and it was the other way around among these that mainly use wholesaler 2 as supply line. After a discussion - many LFS start to not mix these two suppliers fish when they arrive. They let them be in different tanks for a while after they arrive. The first days with as minimal water contact between the batches as possible but not a strong isolation. This works like a charm in most LFS but in one - they still got sick after a while. This particular LFS had get a new tap water supply constructions and in Sweden we use copper in our pipes. New copper pipes will add more copper into the water compared with old and the hot water pipes is worst. I analyze their water and found elevated Cu concentrations. They start to only use cold water in their WC (some percent daily) and install a carbon filtration in the tap water line. Carbon filter is not very effective into remove copper - but take away some. The problems disappear and their disease percent was the same as average LFS in Sweden.

I would say that you maybe not have a problem with supply line in general in the US but maybe many people buy from different sources and mix the fish directly in their tanks. Maybe - that`s the main problem. Fish with different immune system against different pathogens. I´ll try to use only one supply line. Last time when i bought fish that have gone through a different supply line - I lost them in my refugium - no disease in the DT but they did not manage the period in the DT. So - I stay with a LFS that take their fish from only one wholesaler in the future.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

You've been around long. Don't you know any other veteran aquarist that has kept qurantined fish long?

Actually, No.
The difference in a quarantined tank and a natural tank is that in a natural tank fish can be fed food like they eat in the sea with all the living bacteria and parasites they get in the sea so their imunity is as strong as it is supposed to be no matter what types of diseases they encounter.

But whatever. I hope your tank lasts forever.

 

[Squidward]

If so (my bold) - why is this parasite rather common in the wild? I have seen articles from Vietnam with very high percentage infected wild fish. Ich did not develop in an aquarium.

TTM is a good method and if you only use this - I´m with you - but you can´t say that you have an ich free tank the way you have it. You can´t know that for sure. And you will have hundreds of user saying - TTM will not work - you need a prophylactic QT


That´s good for you and you should be proud of that - but (it is always a but) you can´t say that all others way to achieve this is crap. You have been presented for two aquarium using nearly the same methods (different from yours) that with help of latest technique seems to be ich free. I do not know how many fish you have introduce during this 2 years period but for me it is many in my 5 years aquarium. Fish die or disappear even in my aquarium but I have never have a disease that spread through the population and wipe out my tank. The last year - I have introduced around 10 fishes including a copperband. I have some fish with a short life span (small gobies). I have introduce difficult species - some rare that few know anything about - some known to be tricky (copperband, pipefish and scooter blenny).

The fact is I've never introduced ich into my aquarium. Therefore I don't have it. It's a simple concept really. Either you do copper, hyposalinity, or TTM. I chose TTM due to no chemicals involved except when I dose prazipro to certain fish. I've added quite a few fish since 2019. 30 in total in the 300g.(11 Tangs) With that many tangs, you'd think there would be a sign of ich in my tank by now. It just shows how effective TTM is for eradicating ich. Whoever invented TTM, I give high praise to.

 

[Paul B]

Whoever invented TTM, I give high praise to.

Actually us Geezers invented that along with quarantine, copper and just about everything else.
This salt water hobby has been in the US since 1971 when I started. None of these things are new.

But there are plenty of new hobbiests.

If I get a fish covered in ich which I get for free many times, I can throw it in a tank with a diatom filter and in a few days it is cured enough to where I think it will live, then I put it in my tank.

Of course not all new fish in that condition will live depending on the disease progression and the original health of the fish.

I can't even do that any more since I moved 4 years ago because I don't have a spare tank so now I would just have to put that fish in my reef and hope he lives.

 

[homer1475]

LOl 22 pages and the argument continues.......

This is kind of like a "which salt is the best" thread. "my salt is best because of ABC", "NO my salt is better because of ABC", and it continues....... Back and forth, back and forth, never to change anyones mind about what is best.

It's like scientists say that kids now adays have way more allergies then any generation before them because we inoculate everyone from anything, and try to keep our environment to sterile. Our bodies own immune system is bored, so it attacks itself and we end up with a generation full of children that are allergic to everything. Kind of like when I was a kid, you fell down scraped your knee, you rubbed some dirt in it to stop it from bleeding. These days kids run in to the house, mommy puts antibacterial spray on it, and covers it in a bandaid.

 

[WVNed]

I have asked this before and never got an answer.

Why have I never had ich? I have more than a few fish that have come from all over the place, plus all the other stuff I have added 100s of times over the years.

I see all this heartfelt discussion over something that seems a non issue to me.

 

[homer1475]

I have asked this before and never got an answer.

Why have I never had ich? I have more than a few fish that have come from all over the place, plus all the other stuff I have added 100s of times over the years.

I see all this heartfelt discussion over something that seems a non issue to me.

I agree with you 100%!

I got wiped out a few years back when all my QTED fish got ich from another fish that I apparently didn't TTM properly. I ended QT right then and there.

5 years later, and all my current fish(most are 5 years old now)have never been QTed for anything, and all are happy, healthy, thriving, and ich free(least in symptoms). Ich is the least of my fears when I plop and drop now, but in all complete honesty, I loose way less fish to plop and drop, then I ever did doing QT(and all I ever really did was TTM and prazi during TTM). If I do loose a fish, it's always the fish that was introduced, not my established fish. While I do not keep the big "ich magnets", as my tank is only an 80 cube, I do have a blue eyed kole(tang family), and several expensive wrasses. So I do get the "QT is a must for the more expensive fish" argument. When you have several thousands tied up in fish, you naturally want to keep that investment living.

OOH and I have never seen an ich breakout in the past 5 years even after adding a lantern basslet that was littered with ich(3 days later it cleared up and hes a thriving part of my reef now), and none of my other fish skipped a beat, or showed any signs of ich.


Ich I do not worry about, it's the least benign disease to handle, and USUALLY will not cause death.

 

[WVNed]

I am making new screen tops this morning because I have lost fish from jumping. I changed the tank up a bit and the old ones dont fit tight.

 

[Squidward]

I have asked this before and never got an answer.

Why have I never had ich? I have more than a few fish that have come from all over the place, plus all the other stuff I have added 100s of times over the years.

I see all this heartfelt discussion over something that seems a non issue to me.

Just been lucky. As compared to the majority of newbies always getting it. I've seen a guy on fb who said he didn't qurantine and tried to do it Paul B's way. That was last year. Recently he posted that velvet wiped out thousands in fish. Welp

 

[MnFish1]

I have asked this before and never got an answer.

Why have I never had ich? I have more than a few fish that have come from all over the place, plus all the other stuff I have added 100s of times over the years.

I see all this heartfelt discussion over something that seems a non issue to me.

You probably have had it (or your fish have). MOST fish do not die from CI, and if your fish are from a healthy source - they could have some immunity (not specific to CI, but great innate (non-specific) immunity) - and some specific to CI. Second you may have chosen fish with less susceptibility to CI. Fourth - You have a less stressful, lower stocked tank (than average) - and you don't add fish every week (like some people seem to do) - or coral or whatever. I have not had CI in my tank for at least 10 years - and it was never a real problem before that. I did have a wipe out from velvet. Who knows - in your case - maybe you have been lucky? There are lots of people that have had no problems with CI.

I am not that concerned about it - BUT - the honest answer is that likely some version of QT/biosecurity - especially if you are sourcing your fish from different places - is the most scientific/prudent thing to do IMHO

 

[MnFish1]

People have talked about CI in the wild @Lasse correctly points out the very high incidence of CI in various fish in Vietnam. The article is even more interesting in that there was a huge seasonal variation in the percent of fish that showed 'disease' (I do not remember the low-incidence season - but lets pretend its spring) - if you bought fish from these areas in the spring, you would have a far less likelihood of contaminating your tank than in the summer.

The truth is, CI does infect (these fish had gross disease, visible infection, some with gill involvement) and kill wild fish. Though it was thought to be rare in the wild - it has been shown this is not the case.

In just reading an article about mass mortality in fish - one of the paragraphs was written about protozoal infections. The interesting take-home was that in the wild, death from CI would likely be much more prevalent - except that velvet is much more lethal, and that susceptible fish probably die of that first. This MAY explain why people seem to get these velvet outbreaks that kill all of their fish on only a very sporadic basis - because most of the fish with 'active' velvet never make it to our tank (they die in transport, or in the ocean). The rest are immune.

 

[Lasse]

I´ll ask the same question as WVNed - why is not my aquariums wiped out of this dam thing or any other diseases. Your answer is that i have been lucky for my 5 years. Before this tank I had another for 7 years. No wipeout of disease caused of microorganisms - I crash that tank because of my own stupidity and overdosing of potassium. I got ich once in that tank - fast TTM on the two clowns that show indications - back to the aquarium an no catastrophe. Before that I was with (from 2001) in a large shark tank - no marine ich showing up. At my present job - there is both power blues and the other ich magnets - no sign of marine ich for 15 years.

My old boss use to say - luck is not something that just happens - luck is what you get because of your previous work

I have been in the aquarium hobby since 1972. Saltwater since 2001. i think that you make it easy for you when you just say that we that approach the problem from another angle just get lucky. You use a random example from FB in order to strengthen your point of view . but my, Pauls, WVNeds and Homer1475 is pure luck? Can´t we respond with that this guy was unlucky?

I do not if my tank will be wiped out of a disease in the future or not - but what my experiences say me is that if you continue the tunnel vision that you have shown in your argument here - you will get a catastrophe sooner or later.

If it works with TTM for you - just continue to do so and it is a good method (much better than the chemical nightmare with prophylactic treatment in every hobby aquarium) but if you dream that you will have a pathogen free aquarium with that - wake up.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

As compared to the majority of newbies always getting it

You nail it

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with you 100%!

I got wiped out a few years back when all my QTED fish got ich from another fish that I apparently didn't TTM properly. I ended QT right then and there.

5 years later, and all my current fish(most are 5 years old now)have never been QTed for anything, and all are happy, healthy, thriving, and ich free(least in symptoms). Ich is the least of my fears when I plop and drop now, but in all complete honesty, I loose way less fish to plop and drop, then I ever did doing QT(and all I ever really did was TTM and prazi during TTM). If I do loose a fish, it's always the fish that was introduced, not my established fish. While I do not keep the big "ich magnets", as my tank is only an 80 cube, I do have a blue eyed kole(tang family), and several expensive wrasses. So I do get the "QT is a must for the more expensive fish" argument. When you have several thousands tied up in fish, you naturally want to keep that investment living.

OOH and I have never seen an ich breakout in the past 5 years even after adding a lantern basslet that was littered with ich(3 days later it cleared up and hes a thriving part of my reef now), and none of my other fish skipped a beat, or showed any signs of ich.


Ich I do not worry about, it's the least benign disease to handle, and USUALLY will not cause death.

One thing you might want to worry about - especially when adding sick fish to your tank - is that (at least in the wild study that I just read) - the wild fish that tend to get CI are stressed, due to various phenomena - storms, poor water quality etc. They are also much more likely to get lethal velvet. Wrasses may be less susceptible to CI in general.

 

[homer1475]

Naa none of those issues, just petco fish that are typically riddled with ich from stress. Ich is the one disease I do not worry about. Others, sure, but ich is not a concern for my current fish.

 

[MnFish1]

I have been in the aquarium hobby since 1972. Saltwater since 2001. i think that you make it easy for you when you just say that we that approach the problem from another angle just get lucky. You use a random example from FB in order to strengthen your point of view . but my, Pauls, WVNeds and Homer1475 is pure luck? Can´t we respond with that this guy was unlucky?

Seems to me what a lot of people ignore - is that there are lots of reasons that people have more or less success 'managing' disease in their tanks (and I mean all methods of management including QT, etc).

There are lots of people that have had wipe-outs due to CI - and its well described in the literature that this happens and that there is a significant danger thereof. The scientific rationale of why this happens is also well-described (why fish in aquaria tend to do much worse than fish in the wild).

I one hundred percent agree that its possible for a person to have no problem with CI. That said, the interesting part of the discussion to me is 'why'. Are we sure that the rationale @Paul B, @Lasse, @WVNed, (and to a certain degree, myself) use to describe the reasons for their success the actual reasons? Of that I'm not so sure.

I think good nutrition is important. I do not think mud, clams, adding parasites to the tank 'helps'. I think people having older, more stable tanks tend to do better - is that experience? or is that 'biodiversity'? IDK. But many people are sure its the 'biodiversity' of their tanks. Low stress is important, overstocking should be avoided, buying healthy fish from limited sources is IMHO very helpful. I also think high flow rates is very important.

All of that said. Could temperature of one tank (75) have more or less problems than a tank at 80 degrees? Could oxygen levels be an issue? Could the bacteria in a tank be an issue? The varieties of fish in one tank as compared to another? Could one tank have bacteria or other organisms that kill some of the life-forms of CI? Is it filtration? etc etc etc.

To me the argument 'its never happened to me' is not an argument that CI is 'not important'. I wish we were exploring more how the people with CI issues tanks are different than those who have no CI issues.

 

[MnFish1]

Naa none of those issues, just petco fish that are typically riddled with ich from stress. Ich is the one disease I do not worry about. Others, sure, but ich is not a concern for my current fish.

That was my point. Ich can much less a problem for wrasses than others. But - the question here is not only about CI - the reason its more discussed is because there is more 'data' from science about it than the rest. But - curious - what diseases ARE a concern for your current fish and how do you mitigate against them? Since the topic is QT in general - not QT for CI.

 

[ingchr1]

...Could temperature of one tank (75) have more or less problems than a tank at 80 degrees?...

Curious as a very small data sample point, those not quarantining (@Paul B, @Lasse, @WVNed, @MnFish1) what temperature do you run? The temperature I run my tank at is something I have been looking into recently. It seams the "consensus" is in the range of 78-82F with limits of 77-84F.

Just been lucky. As compared to the majority of newbies always getting it. I've seen a guy on fb who said he didn't qurantine and tried to do it Paul B's way. That was last year. Recently he posted that velvet wiped out thousands in fish. Welp

He didn't do it Paul B's way, because Paul B has stated multiple times that it's not something that newbies should try to mimic.

At the same time, if someone tries xyz quarantine method and fails should it be implied that the method is flawed?