Hobby grade “quarantine” probably kills more fish than it saves.

[Tamberav]

Actually, No.
The difference in a quarantined tank and a natural tank is that in a natural tank fish can be fed food like they eat in the sea with all the living bacteria and parasites they get in the sea so their imunity is as strong as it is supposed to be no matter what types of diseases they encounter.

But whatever. I hope your tank lasts forever.

What is stopping a QT person from feeding live worms and clams?

I did TTM and feed those things. I buy the live clams and freeze them. I learned that from you and my LFS sells live black worms. It doesn’t seem to cause any harm with my TTM fish. I also feed LRS.

 

[Lasse]

hat was my point. Ich can much less a problem for wrasses than others

Wonder why - many wrasses sleep there the parasite hatch and could be an easy target . A clue - compare the slime that wrasses produce compared with tangs. In a new established aquaria - the water do not content many biological molecules known as organic colloids - this make the water more corrosive. If these protecting colloids not is present - maybe the parasite can establish itself in the skin in a better way?

However I think - for CI . that the age and if it is a coral tank or FO tank have huge importance. In a mature reef tank - the polyps of the corals works as a filter against hatched CI larvae - it is food for the corals, In a FO - there is not such predation on the larvae.

My temperature is between 24,5 - 25.5 degree C - very stable with exception of summers there it can vary 1 degre C between day and night. Present temp and last year

​

June - July this year

25 degree C = 77 degree F

Sincerely Lasse

 

[WVNed]

My Inkbird is set on 79F. 400 gallons has a lot of thermal inertia. Mt tank drifts between 78-80 degrees over the course of a few days.

 

[Tamberav]

My AC failed and my tank hit 92 or 93 when I was gone out of town. I had no fish deaths and no sickness (TTM tank). I did lose acropora but most LPS and soft corals were fine. Lots of flow and a skimmer so I guess oxygen was fine since fish were still doing well.

My tank isn’t very steady since I don’t have a chiller. Winter it is I guess it stays around 78 but summer it is 80-82 in a day.

 

[ingchr1]

What is stopping a QT person from feeding live worms and clams?

I did TTM and feed those things. I buy the live clams and freeze them. I learned that from you and my LFS sells live black worms. It doesn’t seem to cause any harm with my TTM fish. I also feed LRS.

I would think that you would want to feed these items to a quarantined fish, more so then a non-quarantined fish, to build back any loss of immunity that may have occurred during the quarantine process.

 

[MnFish1]

I would think that you would want to feed these items to a quarantined fish, more so then a non-quarantined fish, to build back any loss of immunity that may have occurred during the quarantine process.

I think this is scientifically incorrect. But - I could be wrong. Feeding any nutritional food will 'build up immunity' (innate/non-specific). I doubt that there are CI parasites (or any others) in or on black worms or clams to build up specific immunity to any pathogen. There is also no evidence at all (from a science perspective) - that a QT for 2 months 'eliminates' immunity. COPPER may affect immune function negatively - but it does not 'kill it'. If you don't use copper, immunity during quarantine is not affected. If you use copper fish MIGHT be slightly more susceptible to disease (and other problems in the future). A quarantine tank is not 'sterile' - it contains all of the microbes (both in and on the fish) that the fish bought with it (again unless you're using antibiotics, etc)

The great thing about immunity is that its not gone in 2 weeks or a month or 3 months. Immunity has a 'memory' - such that when you are exposed to something the immune system creates cells that sit and wait for you to be exposed to that 'thing' again. in Fish - with CI, that 'immunity' lasts at least 6 months at which point it seems to decline. BUT - the study that data is taken from only lasted 6 months - so there is no way to know if it last longer or comes back. That said there is a lot of data that says that fish that have been exposed to CI once if they get it again (after a long period) - it is less damaging.

 

[MnFish1]

Curious as a very small data sample point, those not quarantining (@Paul B, @Lasse, @WVNed, @MnFish1) what temperature do you run? The temperature I run my tank at is something I have been looking into recently. It seams the "consensus" is in the range of 78-82F with limits of 77-84F.

78-79. It can range some higher in the summer.

 

[Paul B]

what temperature do you run? The temperature I run my tank at is something I have been looking into recently. It seams the "consensus" is in the range of 78-82F with limits of 77-84F.

My tank runs about the same temperature I live at in the winter and a little higher in the summer. The tank is in my workshop and the temperature varies with the seasons. Right now it is 81 degrees. In the winter it is about 76 or so.

He didn't do it Paul B's way, because Paul B has stated multiple times that it's not something that newbies should try to mimic.

That is correct. A Noob tank will not be healthy no matter what he or she does. They need more experience and aged bacteria.

What is stopping a QT person from feeding live worms and clams?

Live worms are no problem but fresh clams will harbor parasites as they are filter feeders. I am not sure how long it needs to be frozen to kill parasites but remember, I want parasites and so do my fish.

I add fish occasionally because they do die eventually or jump out. Right now I have a Bangai Cardinal with something weird growing out of both gills which I have never seen before but it is probably not a good thing.

He will most likely die and if he does, I will replace him with something. My favorite LFS is about 15 miles away and the place is filthy but the fish are pretty good and very cheap. (copperbands $25.00 firefish $8.00)

Many of his tanks will have ich. Thats a good thing as long as the fish is not obviously dying when I get it.

Those living parasites will hopefully live in my tank for a few months trying to get some blood from my fish. They will mostly fail because the fish immunity will not allow them to live long but while they are living and trying to infect my fish, their immune system is getting stronger.

If fish never encounter parasites, like in a quarantined or coppered tank, those fish will never be immune and always susceptible for the rest of their lives.

I also believe if live foods or freshly frozen foods are never fed or if dry food is the only thing fish get, they will never be as healthy as fish fed freshly frozen or fresh food.

All creatures need living gut bacteria to stay healthy and spawn. Spawning is the healthiest criteria a fish needs to tell you it is healthy.

If you have paired fish that "can spawn" in a tank and they are not spawning, they are not healthy as fish spawn constantly.

 

[ingchr1]

I think this is scientifically incorrect. But - I could be wrong. Feeding any nutritional food will 'build up immunity' (innate/non-specific). I doubt that there are CI parasites (or any others) in or on black worms or clams to build up specific immunity to any pathogen...

I was stating more in generic terms, not to a specific parasite. I believe it's been stated that the worms/clams have bacteria beneficial to a fish's immune system. If the immune system was compromised during the quarantine process, would these not be the ideal foods to feed during and after the process?

 

[Tamberav]

My tank runs about the same temperature I live at in the winter and a little higher in the summer. The tank is in my workshop and the temperature varies with the seasons. Right now it is 81 degrees. In the winter it is about 76 or so.

That is correct. A Noob tank will not be healthy no matter what he or she does. They need more experience and aged bacteria.

Live worms are no problem but fresh clams will harbor parasites as they are filter feeders. I am not sure how long it needs to be frozen to kill parasites but remember, I want parasites and so do my fish.

I add fish occasionally because they do die eventually or jump out. Right now I have a Bangai Cardinal with something weird growing out of both gills which I have never seen before but it is probably not a good thing.

He will most likely die and if he does, I will replace him with something. My favorite LFS is about 15 miles away and the place is filthy but the fish are pretty good and very cheap. (copperbands $25.00 firefish $8.00)

Many of his tanks will have ich. Thats a good thing as long as the fish is not obviously dying when I get it.

Those living parasites will hopefully live in my tank for a few months trying to get some blood from my fish. They will mostly fail because the fish immunity will not allow them to live long but while they are living and trying to infect my fish, their immune system is getting stronger.

If fish never encounter parasites, like in a quarantined or coppered tank, those fish will never be immune and always susceptible for the rest of their lives.

I also believe if live foods or freshly frozen foods are never fed or if dry food is the only thing fish get, they will never be as healthy as fish fed freshly frozen or fresh food.

All creatures need living gut bacteria to stay healthy and spawn. Spawning is the healthiest criteria a fish needs to tell you it is healthy.

If you have paired fish that "can spawn" in a tank and they are not spawning, they are not healthy as fish spawn constantly.

I do not add the shells of the clams. I freeze then cut out the fleshy goodness. I would think risk is minimal and freezing may damage free swimmers. There shouldn't be any 'cysts' on flesh. I am going to keep doing it and will let you know if my TTM QT fish get sick from it. I just really doubt it. I have been doing it for awhile now! While I have changed tanks/moved and changed sold all my fish at times. I have kept my current live rock and it is about 10 years old now. So the rock is old but the current glass box has been up two years now.

I am jealous of the price of fish you have access too. Most people do not have that. A firefish goby is $15 and a Copperband $60 and that is at the LFS that has the best prices in the area.

My clownfish pair spawn and I have a radiant wrasse pair that also spawn. Those are the only pairs of fish I have. Well I have a spawning pair of catalina gobies in a different tank (that runs 55 degrees). That tank is 7 years old and the anemones are still in there from 7 years ago. The Catalina's turned two years with me in July.

There are those that have spawning clownfish that eat nothing but pellets. Ofc clownfish are considered a easy beginner fish.

 

[MnFish1]

I was stating more in generic terms, not to a specific parasite. I believe it's been stated that the worms/clams have bacteria beneficial to a fish's immune system. If the immune system was compromised during the quarantine process, would these not be the ideal foods to feed during and after the process?

You are correct 'it has been stated' - without proof. My comment would be - and nutritious food that the fish will eat is adequate.

 

[Squidward]

I agree with you 100%!

I got wiped out a few years back when all my QTED fish got ich from another fish that I apparently didn't TTM properly. I ended QT right then and there.

5 years later, and all my current fish(most are 5 years old now)have never been QTed for anything, and all are happy, healthy, thriving, and ich free(least in symptoms). Ich is the least of my fears when I plop and drop now, but in all complete honesty, I loose way less fish to plop and drop, then I ever did doing QT(and all I ever really did was TTM and prazi during TTM). If I do loose a fish, it's always the fish that was introduced, not my established fish. While I do not keep the big "ich magnets", as my tank is only an 80 cube, I do have a blue eyed kole(tang family), and several expensive wrasses. So I do get the "QT is a must for the more expensive fish" argument. When you have several thousands tied up in fish, you naturally want to keep that investment living.

OOH and I have never seen an ich breakout in the past 5 years even after adding a lantern basslet that was littered with ich(3 days later it cleared up and hes a thriving part of my reef now), and none of my other fish skipped a beat, or showed any signs of ich.


Ich I do not worry about, it's the least benign disease to handle, and USUALLY will not cause death.

So you gave up on qurantine cause you did it wrong?

Curious as a very small data sample point, those not quarantining (@Paul B, @Lasse, @WVNed, @MnFish1) what temperature do you run? The temperature I run my tank at is something I have been looking into recently. It seams the "consensus" is in the range of 78-82F with limits of 77-84F.

He didn't do it Paul B's way, because Paul B has stated multiple times that it's not something that newbies should try to mimic.

At the same time, if someone tries xyz quarantine method and fails should it be implied that the method is flawed?

He personally said it himself. And tried it and failed. It just shows how difficult and mature a tank has to be to successfully mimic Paul's way.

 

[Squidward]

I´ll ask the same question as WVNed - why is not my aquariums wiped out of this dam thing or any other diseases. Your answer is that i have been lucky for my 5 years. Before this tank I had another for 7 years. No wipeout of disease caused of microorganisms - I crash that tank because of my own stupidity and overdosing of potassium. I got ich once in that tank - fast TTM on the two clowns that show indications - back to the aquarium an no catastrophe. Before that I was with (from 2001) in a large shark tank - no marine ich showing up. At my present job - there is both power blues and the other ich magnets - no sign of marine ich for 15 years.

My old boss use to say - luck is not something that just happens - luck is what you get because of your previous work

I have been in the aquarium hobby since 1972. Saltwater since 2001. i think that you make it easy for you when you just say that we that approach the problem from another angle just get lucky. You use a random example from FB in order to strengthen your point of view . but my, Pauls, WVNeds and Homer1475 is pure luck? Can´t we respond with that this guy was unlucky?

I do not if my tank will be wiped out of a disease in the future or not - but what my experiences say me is that if you continue the tunnel vision that you have shown in your argument here - you will get a catastrophe sooner or later.

If it works with TTM for you - just continue to do so and it is a good method (much better than the chemical nightmare with prophylactic treatment in every hobby aquarium) but if you dream that you will have a pathogen free aquarium with that - wake up.

Sincerely Lasse

So about 4 people here successfully does non qurantine as compared to actual Aquariums around the world and other professional hobbyists like Andrew Sandler, Mark Callahan, etc. I wish there were more success stories of the no qurantine hobbyists. But I've heard too many stories of people not qurantining for years then suddenly velvet comes in and wipes them out. So why take that reckless risk when you can easily prevent that? Sounds like a simple answer to me.

 

[LegalReefer]

I do not quarantine, because I own one fish

 

[Bruce60]

I understand the reasoning many have used to advocate for quarantine.

I have been a hobbyist for over 50 years now, starting with fresh and moving on to salt and reef environments. I have NEVER had a quarantine tank or system, and I have had an issue related to a new acquisition less than once per decade (and maybe less than once every 20 years). To what do I credit this to, besides some element of luck?

1. I strive to keep my systems in good condition and my specimens healthy. Why? I know my environment contains all of these pathogens, just like in nature. Healthy specimens are better able to resist the pathogens that are in the environment and a healthy environment is better able to keep pathogens in balance.

2. I have almost exclusively picked out my living specimens myself, observing them and not settling because I want one of that species. It has been when I have items shipped in that the risk of a contaminated specimen is higher.

 

[Thomashtom]

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion but here it goes:

It is my sincere belief that “hobby grade” quarantine causes more harm than good.

The fish you just got is stressed from travel, probably stressed from being caught in the wild recently and instead of dropping it into your large display tank with plenty of rocks to hide and established chemistry, pods and tank mates you drop it into a tiny tank with freshly made saltwater, possibly no biological filter and a tiny piece of PVC…

I truly believe that more fish have been killed by this process than saved.

If the fish looks healthy I just drop it straight into the display, preferably at dusk, have had zero issues with this method in the last 16 years.

I believe one of the old school reefers was also in this camp, can’t remember his name at this time.

Any one else agree with this?

Please give this QT topic a rest!!!!! Do what you want!!!!

 

[Tamberav]

@Paul B I came across this post. I’d say QT people feel free to feed fresh clams they freeze IMO. Healthy food!

 

[i cant think]

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion but here it goes:

It is my sincere belief that “hobby grade” quarantine causes more harm than good.

The fish you just got is stressed from travel, probably stressed from being caught in the wild recently and instead of dropping it into your large display tank with plenty of rocks to hide and established chemistry, pods and tank mates you drop it into a tiny tank with freshly made saltwater, possibly no biological filter and a tiny piece of PVC…

I truly believe that more fish have been killed by this process than saved.

If the fish looks healthy I just drop it straight into the display, preferably at dusk, have had zero issues with this method in the last 16 years.

I believe one of the old school reefers was also in this camp, can’t remember his name at this time.

Any one else agree with this?

I honestly agree with this. My reason why is because I’ve not done QT ever and the only time I’ve actually had to face ich/velvet was with the fish that had already been through QT before I bought them. I refuse to QT unless it comes from a totally different store on the other side of the country.

 

[Lasse]

But I've heard too many stories of people not qurantining for years then suddenly velvet comes in and wipes them out.

How do your TTM protocol looks like? I have never ever seen a velvet outbreak - but I have read that it is a fast developing disease - able to wipe out a tank in 24 - 48 hours. This use to be the argue for using chemical prophylactic treatment - if you get a velvet infected fish - you have no time to treat - you must treat in advance. TTM would be useless if this argument is true.

4 people here successfully does non qurantine as compared to actual Aquariums around the world

Funny - how many salt water aquariums are there around the world? How many threads are there about actually diseases in forums around the world? Does those that do not have diseases write in the diseases forums. How many threads have you seen saying - Help - I seems to have healthy fish? How many aquarists use any type of QT compared to how many that just introduce their fish?

IMO - I can see a trend - mostly old and experienced hobbyists advocate against prophylactic treatment (with some exceptions) and mostly rather new hobbyists advocate for different type of prophylactic treatments in a hobby scale. it is also important to differ between "home" treatment and the possibilities that commercial and public activities have in form of trained personnel - including veterinarians.

I have following all of these QT treads in another forum and surprisingly often (however not for me) there is reports of sick fish after some days of chemical prophylactic treatment with a cascade of different drugs. The recommended remedy when this happen are mostly --- more drugs. Since my childhood - I have learned that if some indications/new indications still are there/shows up - is likely the treatment that is wrong and it needs to be stopped.

Its also funny that the reactions when a treatment goes wrong - it is not a fault with the treatment/diagnosis - is the ones that does the treatment that do it in the wrong way. if it is as hard as this to do a treatment right - maybe it is wrong to recommend new aquarist to do this.

I´m not against TTM (neither hybrid TTM with H2O2), observation QT or buy fish from vendors that QT fish before they sell them. I´m against all of these hobby chemical prophylactic treatments protocol that exist. With public aquariums - some use chemical prophylactic treatment - some have left that track and use different methods.

I´m not against that you do TTM with all of your fish - do you feel safer than - it is good for me. But when you state that you in this way will get a disease free tank (ich free or now even velvet) and that´s the only thing new aquarist needs to do in order to withhold a healthy aquarium you are wrong and you do a disservice to these people (In Sweden we call this a bear service - because - if a bear hugs you out of kindness - you die).

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Squidward]

How do your TTM protocol looks like? I have never ever seen a velvet outbreak - but I have read that it is a fast developing disease - able to wipe out a tank in 24 - 48 hours. This use to be the argue for using chemical prophylactic treatment - if you get a velvet infected fish - you have no time to treat - you must treat in advance. TTM would be useless if this argument is true.


Funny - how many salt water aquariums are there around the world? How many threads are there about actually diseases in forums around the world? Does those that do not have diseases write in the diseases forums. How many threads have you seen saying - Help - I seems to have healthy fish? How many aquarists use any type of QT compared to how many that just introduce their fish?

IMO - I can see a trend - mostly old and experienced hobbyists advocate against prophylactic treatment (with some exceptions) and mostly rather new hobbyists advocate for different type of prophylactic treatments in a hobby scale. it is also important to differ between "home" treatment and the possibilities that commercial and public activities have in form of trained personnel - including veterinarians.

I have following all of these QT treads in another forum and surprisingly often (however not for me) there is reports of sick fish after some days of chemical prophylactic treatment with a cascade of different drugs. The recommended remedy when this happen are mostly --- more drugs. Since my childhood - I have learned that if some indications/new indications still are there/shows up - is likely the treatment that is wrong and it needs to be stopped.

Its also funny that the reactions when a treatment goes wrong - it is not a fault with the treatment/diagnosis - is the ones that does the treatment that do it in the wrong way. if it is as hard as this to do a treatment right - maybe it is wrong to recommend new aquarist to do this.

I´m not against TTM (neither hybrid TTM with H2O2), observation QT or buy fish from vendors that QT fish before they sell them. I´m against all of these hobby chemical prophylactic treatments protocol that exist. With public aquariums - some use chemical prophylactic treatment - some have left that track and use different methods.

I´m not against that you do TTM with all of your fish - do you feel safer than - it is good for me. But when you state that you in this way will get a disease free tank (ich free or now even velvet) and that´s the only thing new aquarist needs to do in order to withhold a healthy aquarium you are wrong and you do a disservice to these people (In Sweden we call this a bear service - because - if a bear hugs you out of kindness - you die).

Sincerely Lasse

I do basic TTM and with prazipro on certain fish like angels. I haven't seen velvet. And I'm pretty much up to max on my stocking. Even with TTM, I would still get to observe the fish if it happened to have velvet without it being in my display. Does anyone know if velvet just suddenly appears after several days? So far so good.

If TTM has been proven to eradicate ich, than yes there's nothing wrong with what I said. Do you still don't believe my tank is ich free?

I advocate for qurantine. That's something this hobby is really lacking. The majority of hobbyists especially newbies should know and learn about qurantine. I find it as important as cycling your tank. And I don't know why you guys always try to compare fish with human analogies.

You can do whatever you want. I just don't like seeing the neverending new hobbyists suffer losses on a daily basis.
So how do you non qurantine guys give advice to people who's fish have ich, etc. and are dying?? Do you just tell them to feed heavy and hope for the best??