Hobby grade “quarantine” probably kills more fish than it saves.

[Paul B]

Since you found Paul's post that encourages your methodology of dump and pray , do yourself a favor and type in "velvet" in the search bar .

Pete, I agree with you but you are wasting your time with this line of facts.
Out of all those people arguing with you none of them have an old healthy tank.
Some maybe four or five years or even 10 years old but that is a Noob tank and if you have a 5 year old fish that is like a 2 year old child.

I personally don't care how people care for their fish but I would never let my fish get sick and they never will.

You will constantly read about "luck". 50 year old luck. Or like above "dump and pray" which of course will kill your fish and is not my method.

But I am old and besides me, there is only one other pioneer in this hobby who was here when this hobby started and me and a few others learned after many failures how to advance past quarantine and medication and have a healthy tank that will last forever with no diseases as fish are supposed to live.

We will be gone in a few years and all the people here can continue to quarantine and medicate and the disease forum will continue to thrive.

But I hate to see sick fish so I wish every ones tank good health.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion but here it goes:

It is my sincere belief that “hobby grade” quarantine causes more harm than good.

The fish you just got is stressed from travel, probably stressed from being caught in the wild recently and instead of dropping it into your large display tank with plenty of rocks to hide and established chemistry, pods and tank mates you drop it into a tiny tank with freshly made saltwater, possibly no biological filter and a tiny piece of PVC…

I truly believe that more fish have been killed by this process than saved.

If the fish looks healthy I just drop it straight into the display, preferably at dusk, have had zero issues with this method in the last 16 years.

I believe one of the old school reefers was also in this camp, can’t remember his name at this time.

Any one else agree with this?

Improperly done hobby grade quarantine does kill a lot of fish. So does no quarantine at all. My quarantine protocol pretty consistently handles around 80% of the disease issues that crop up in new fish. The things not treated for include: Brooklynella, Uronema, bacterial and viral issues. I haven't lost a marine fish to ich, velvet or flukes since 2015.

REMEMBER: quarantine isn't really about the new fish, it is about protecting the fish you already have!

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I agree with @Pete_the_Puma . I've always believed a happy fish will stay healthy, and a stressed, unhappy fish will die no matter what kind of QT or dipping or double-dipping that people do.

Netting fish, going from tank to tank, dipping in freshwater and other medicines even though the fish shows no symptoms, keeps fish in a stressed-out, scared state of mind. Any living thing that becomes stressed becomes weak to sickness and disease.

So many stories on the forum of fish getting ich in QT that appeared healthy at the LFS, buy fish from 2-3 different LFS but they all get ich in the QT, we see this here on the forum almost every day. Why? Your QT and dipping should cure everything right?

I would say ignorance kills a lot more fish than QT or no QT.

 

[Paul B]

mproperly done hobby grade quarantine does kill a lot of fish. So does no quarantine at all. My quarantine protocol pretty consistently handles around 80% of the disease issues that crop up in new fish. The things not treated for include: Brooklynella, Uronema, bacterial and viral issues. I haven't lost a marine fish to ich, velvet or flukes since 2015.

REMEMBER: quarantine isn't really about the new fish, it is about protecting the fish you already have!

Jay, Good Morning. I have a lot of respect for you and even your methods. I volunteer at a large public aquarium here in New York (although I almost never go there) and you probably even know the curator.

My success rate for new fish may be 80%, I don't know but I think it's higher. But I never lose a fish from ich, velvet, uronoma or brooklynella and never encountered those diseases. If a new fish dies, it was probably going to die no matter what was done to it as we both know, 100% of store bought fish will never live as we have no idea the conditions that fish was in or if it ever was fed.

I personally have not lost a fish from one of the communicable diseases since probably the 80s or maybe early 90s. That is over 40 years. Not once. I have to look because I do have an old log book but it is somewhere decades ago.

I also have no medications or hospital tank. I know you don't believe in total immunity and I agree it is a difficult concept to grasp. I don't know what to call it but I am awestruck the amount of diseases we have on these forums and I have no idea why fish get sick and mine "never" do.

I have to take my wife to a Dr. today and there are two LFSs near there so I want to buy a fish or two as I have not bought one in quite a while and 3 of them jumped out last year.

The place I go has been there for 50 years and is totally filthy. I hate to go in there but the fish are mostly healthy and very cheap. (copperbands like $25.00 and firefish eight bucks)

I still have fish from there that I bought 10 and 12 years ago which are still spawning.

Many people on this forum feel it is luck. That is ridiculous. To me it is simple. It all revolves around gut bacteria and proper living conditions and I don't mean parameters. I mean mostly hiding places.

Gut bacteria in fish and us controls our immunity and at least to me, all medications, stress, long quarantine will short circuit that causing, not curing disease which is why there are no old long quarantined or medicated "home" tanks where the fish are spawning and only dying of two things, old age and jumping out. OK, maybe bullying.

50 years is not luck no matter how people want to spin that.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, Good Morning. I have a lot of respect for you and even your methods. I volunteer at a large public aquarium here in New York (although I almost never go there) and you probably even know the curator.

My success rate for new fish may be 80%, I don't know but I think it's higher. But I never lose a fish from ich, velvet, uronoma or brooklynella and never encountered those diseases. If a new fish dies, it was probably going to die no matter what was done to it as we both know, 100% of store bought fish will never live as we have no idea the conditions that fish was in or if it ever was fed.

I personally have not lost a fish from one of the communicable diseases since probably the 80s or maybe early 90s. That is over 40 years. Not once. I have to look because I do have an old log book but it is somewhere decades ago.

I also have no medications or hospital tank. I know you don't believe in total immunity and I agree it is a difficult concept to grasp. I don't know what to call it but I am awestruck the amount of diseases we have on these forums and I have no idea why fish get sick and mine "never" do.

I have to take my wife to a Dr. today and there are two LFSs near there so I want to buy a fish or two as I have not bought one in quite a while and 3 of them jumped out last year.

The place I go has been there for 50 years and is totally filthy. I hate to go in there but the fish are mostly healthy and very cheap. (copperbands like $25.00 and firefish eight bucks)

I still have fish from there that I bought 10 and 12 years ago which are still spawning.

Many people on this forum feel it is luck. That is ridiculous. To me it is simple. It all revolves around gut bacteria and proper living conditions and I don't mean parameters. I mean mostly hiding places.

Gut bacteria in fish and us controls our immunity and at least to me, all medications, stress, long quarantine will short circuit that causing, not curing disease which is why there are no old long quarantined or medicated "home" tanks where the fish are spawning and only dying of two things, old age and jumping out. OK, maybe bullying.

50 years is not luck no matter how people want to spin that.

Paul,

Yes, I know Joe pretty well. Todd Gardner (who used to work there) has worked with me on breeding boar fish and helping with a college class I took out to LI for a collecting trip. Joe just revamped his 20k gallon reef - total tear down and rebuild.
I’m not questioning your results at all, only that many/most home aquarists aren’t going to have good luck replicating them. Did I ever tell you the story of me and my friend Doug in the 1960’s early ‘70’s?
We both had marine tanks. I had a good paper route with lots of disposable income. Doug only had his birthday money to work with. I would buy all sorts of critters, put them in my tanks, they would die, and I would just buy more. Doug would add a new fish once a year or so, after much deliberation (this observation period actually screened out a lot of problem fish for him). Neither of us knew what quarantine meant. In four years, Doug had purchased maybe six fish. In the same time, I had killed literally $2k worth of fish. I still remember most of his fish: a coral cat, tiera batfish and blue face angel. I can only recall a few of the fish I had. You are Doug, and the typical home aquarist is me. I would have benefitted greatly from either more deliberation, or quarantine.

Jay

 

[snorklr]

Do you realize how much it actually costs to setup a proper QT? It really isn't all that much. You need a 40b, filter, heater, air stone and a couple pieces of PVC. Quite cheap tbh. Its not the cost that prevents people from doing it. Its the wait.

no problem at all...all the folks with nano tanks just need to set up a larger tank as a QT...maybe we can all think of novel places to put them in dorms or apartments...like remove your bed and set up a hammock above your tanks...

 

[Arego]

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion but here it goes:

It is my sincere belief that “hobby grade” quarantine causes more harm than good.

The fish you just got is stressed from travel, probably stressed from being caught in the wild recently and instead of dropping it into your large display tank with plenty of rocks to hide and established chemistry, pods and tank mates you drop it into a tiny tank with freshly made saltwater, possibly no biological filter and a tiny piece of PVC…

I truly believe that more fish have been killed by this process than saved.

If the fish looks healthy I just drop it straight into the display, preferably at dusk, have had zero issues with this method in the last 16 years.

I believe one of the old school reefers was also in this camp, can’t remember his name at this time.

Any one else agree with this?

Couldn't agree more. I've lost more as well as others around me I know trying to quarantine then I ever have directly acclimating and putting them in the display. YMMV

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Oh good, it's been 3 days and we're going to argue about this again.

 

[BoneDoc]

Tha

I totally get why people don’t want to QT. it’s complicated, large learning curve, less simple than buying new fish and having that instant gratification that we people cannot live without.

But for me (anecdotal experience) waking up every day to a new fish dead on my powerhead + having a thorough fish examination every time I passed the tank REALLY sucked the fun for me. This was my LAST straw at ich management:

That is velvet right?

 

[keithw283]

Even if putting them in QT did do more harm than good for that particular fish, you have to consider the others as well in your display tank. When I was new to the hobby, I never quarantined and it was never a problem. Until it was and all my fish died

 

[Paul B]

Jay, I live 5 minutes from Aquarius aquarium and my boat is out back of it and the marina and aquarium is owned by the same people. I spoke to Joe when I moved here as I wanted to volunteer there. I went there and took the course to volunteer which was basically how to talk to people, don't beat anyone up or steal their pocketbooks. Most of all, don't touch the kids.

Joe told me when I come there he will have me doing things in the big reef tank.

So I went there on my first day to volunteer and I never saw Joe. They had me sitting with a woman at the "touch" tank where she spent an hour explaining to me what a starfish was.

We can't call them starfish there because it is not PC to the starfish so we have to call them "Sea Stars".

That is a big deal there.

Then I gave food to toddlers who wanted to feed the sting rays.

I never got to work on their tanks or see Joe and I got busy with boating and other things so I never went back.

They keep offering me a job there Captaining their cruise/tourist boat. I am not looking for a job but the things pulls in at some mud flat and they show the people the fiddler crabs.

My young life in the 50s revolved around the sea and l didn't have income as my Dad died when I was very young. But I grew up in his sea food market and when he took me to the Fulton Fish Market I would climb on the mountains of fish that were just dumped on the sidewalk next to the ship.

I am sure I smelled real good. ;Bucktooth But I would normally find living crabs, seahorses and mostly tiny eels.
My favorite thing then was playing with the sea turtles that were up side down and would be turned into soup.

I would bring these creatures home and put them in tap water. Of course the next day they were dead. Until of course I discovered that salt water was different from fresh water.

All my tanks in the 50s and 60s were creatures I collected in muddy tide pools which I eventually became pretty good at keeping them alive.

If you ever come back to the eastern end of Long Island, let me know. We can talk fish or go boating.

 

[Miami Reef]

Tha

That is velvet right?

I’m not sure. It didn’t kill them. One died from bacterial infection. I heard velvet kills fast. It took over a week before I was able to tear down the tank. I doubt they would have survived long term without intervention.

 

[brandon429]

Team: For every minute we spend here discussing someones own reef, ten new help posts appear in the fish disease forum asking for loss prevention assistance, it means the masses need help they're not getting from non quarantine approaches, most all disease tank entrants skipped it.




That's how the stickies work in the fish disease forum, posters have comparable search tools to match their needs and they can see patterned outcomes already, so what you have to offer as an alternative needs to be better vetted, not lesser-vetted info or opinion.

ok see you there, a flood of help based on experience and linkable tracking is about to hit in the fish disease forum let's watch it unfold:

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

whats listed there runs zoos.


when choosing a disease handling approach, is it ideal to use what zoo's would use?

 

[tehmadreefer]

Absolutely. QT is the biggest money grabbing killer of fish in this hobby than anything else. Remember fear sells.

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion but here it goes:

It is my sincere belief that “hobby grade” quarantine causes more harm than good.

The fish you just got is stressed from travel, probably stressed from being caught in the wild recently and instead of dropping it into your large display tank with plenty of rocks to hide and established chemistry, pods and tank mates you drop it into a tiny tank with freshly made saltwater, possibly no biological filter and a tiny piece of PVC…

I truly believe that more fish have been killed by this process than saved.

If the fish looks healthy I just drop it straight into the display, preferably at dusk, have had zero issues with this method in the last 16 years.

I believe one of the old school reefers was also in this camp, can’t remember his name at this time.

Any one else agree with this?

 

[Tamberav]

Absolutely. QT is the biggest money grabbing killer of fish in this hobby than anything else. Remember fear sells.

I don't get it. What are they selling?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Absolutely. QT is the biggest money grabbing killer of fish in this hobby than anything else. Remember fear sells.

I strongly advocate for proper quarantine, yet I have no vested commercial interest in that procedure. I'm not sure what your statement means. Do you mean that firms selling pre quarantined are doing so for profit? Sure, they are looking to make a profit, but home aquarists always have the option to quarantine their own fish. Companies selling fish medications do not strongly advocate for quarantine - they make their profits from product sold as a preventative or to treat an acute infection after-the-fact.

The biggest "fish killer" has always been poor quality fish, bought by people who just add them right into their tank containing healthy fish. This has been true since I entered the hobby back in 1968. One specific issue for this entire time has been the use of sodium cyanide to collect reef fishes in certain areas. Quarantine in your home won't resolve that, unless you know how to avoid those fish, OR if you buy pre quarantined fish, and let that latent mortality fall on the dealer.

Proper quarantine will greatly reduce your new fish mortality, as well as protecting your existing fish - there simply is no disputing that fact.


Jay

 

[GeoSquid]

Never quarantined anything. Never lost a fish to disease, but a couple jumped out. Had 1 Ick outbreak in that time. Feeding live clams, oysters, white worms and salmon, and it was gone in 2 weeks. No fish losses, that was almost a year ago..ish. Also, I've moved a lot in the past and have probably started 6 tanks from scratch with a lot of new fish additions. But...everyone will do as they do. Fish stress is a big deal, especially the trip they take to get to the fish store.

 

[trmiv]

I agree improperly done QT does kill a lot of fish. I’ve killed my share of fish in QT because I suck at it. But I still won’t put a fish in my tank that hasn’t gone through QT because the supply chain is so full of disease. So since I completely suck at QT and have absolutely zero patience for trying to do it properly, and QT just sucks the fun out of the hobby for me, I stopped attempting to QT fish and switched to buying from vendors who properly Qt fish for me.

 

[Operator Wrasse]

Since this the first active QT thread I've come across, I'd like to bring up my issue with the hobbyist QT regiment. I want to put a disclaimer outer there that I believe proper QT is exponentially more important than dump and pray methods. I would love your opinions, especially from @Jay Hemdal and @Paul B

If you do not quarantine everything that goes into your display tank, what is the point of prophylactic treatment other than getting rid of immediate illness. In fact, if you put and live sand or rock from the ocean into your tank, other than running a fallow period with ammonia and phosphate supplementation, you will undoubtedly have hostile protozoans in your tank.

My point: Is prophylactic treatment more detrimental than observation only because prophylactic treatment may or may not compromise the immunity to disease that the fish had built over time. If a disease-free fish is put into a compromised system, will that fish be more at risk when a stress event occurs?

 

[brandon429]

Operator:

cycles cannot be starved by any degree of fallow

ammonia or feed is not required to keep a filter alive, we cycle up brutes of rock in a few mos underwater, the length of time about the same time as a fallow wait, and they’re cycled at the end of a few mos wait given no direct feeding no bottle bac. They move test ammonia just like a paid bottle bac cycle we have handy work threads to show.


but if you want to dose, or feed because there are animals in the fallowed tank that makes sense. Wanted to mention that no cycle starves so that bottle bac sellers don’t gain full complete control over the truth, for a price. They’re very close…

what you’re talking about vector control is spot on

there’s dedicated serious fallow and then there’s fish only fallow, but all snails and hard scapes are just dumped.

whether true exclusive fallow prevents disease transmission better than light fallow / fish only needs to be logged

I would practice the exclusive method, there’s lots of fish loss after adding 200 snail clean up crew posts and or other wet items right out of other fish tanks. Everyone strives to not add tank water from a pet store, well adding wet items from a pet store is exactly that.