Always Reefin'
Community Member
An addition for your writeup: Acriflavine is also a mutagenic carcinogen and should be handled with care like Formalin ie gloves, possibly mask.
Sarah
Home-study of fish disease/parasites
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An addition for your writeup: Acriflavine is also a mutagenic carcinogen and should be handled with care like Formalin ie gloves, possibly mask.
Sarah
I've read conflicting things on this. It seems acriflavine is only considered a carcinogen by Australian authorities.
Most SDS claim it is non-carcinogenic according to ACGIH, NTP and OSHA.
Always Reefin'
Community Member
I've read conflicting things on this. It seems acriflavine is only considered a carcinogen by Australian authorities.
Regardless of what they claim, perhaps acriflavine wasn't reviewed in depth, it still should be handled with gloves and a mask when mixing, we can all agree it is a strong irritant.
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GHsaltie
Valuable Member
Well I am suddenly and unexpectedly resurrecting this thread from the grave. I wasn't expecting it to be back up quite so soon but opportunity showed itself and, although somewhat inconvenient timing, I am going to grab it by the horns as I wish to further my experience and knowledge. After debating on it for two days I decided today that I would bring home two fish that are heavily infected with velvet. Unfortunately because of my indecision (financial issues, I was trying to be logical ) I waited too long and one of the fish has already passed away, but I'll go into more detail on that later. Anyway so the fish had been showing visible signs for three days now that I know of, could have been longer but I was on holiday vaca. The surviving fish is a two-barred rabbitfish and the deceased was a mertensii butterfly. I had an hour and a half drive home after work (holiday traffic :mad and by the end I wasn't holding out much hope for the butterfly. Aside from the velvet he also appeared to have an advanced bacterial infection as there were tiny open wounds speckled all over his body. About half way home he started to lay on his side and his breathing slowed. At the time I remembered the salvage thread made by Humble and that lowering the temperature can help keep the fish alive a little longer, so I tried to cool my car down to try and somewhat achieve that. Being that I had such a long drive it was plenty of time to get my head straight (I was panicking a bit because I felt so bad for the butterfly ) and devise a plan. I decided to get them in a freshwater dip asap when I got home and then to perform a 30 min hydrogen peroxide bath, like I did with Lips (I still don't have acriflavine but I'm going straight to Amazon prime after this ), then straight into QT pre-dosed with Coppersafe. By the time I got the freshwater dip ready I knew the butterfly wasn't going to make it, his breathing was rapid at this point but he couldn't got off his side. He ended up passing away about 3min into the dip. I left the body in to check for flukes, that I saw none came from him or the rabbitfish that was swimming around and doing much better. I did have the forethought to take a couple postmortem pics while the rabbitfish was taking his bath. I also tried to take pictures of the rabbit after he went into QT, but it's dark in the room now so I wasn't having much success and my cat decided to jump onto the table and scare the poor fish . I decided to leave him be at that point, but hopefully I'll have more and better pictures of him tomorrow, the butterfly will also get a proper burial with my other fish.
If you have really good eyes then you can see the spots mostly on his head. The rest is hard to see even in person because he camos the second the look at him funny.
The pictures don't show it as well as I would like but throughout the butterfly's body, mostly around the head and fins, there were tiny open wounds and a general "bloody" appearance under the surface. It looked almost as if he had a bunch of veins burst right underneath the scales. This is what I assume to be the bacterial infection at play.
Props to whoever reads through all that. I'll give another update on rabbit tomorrow morning, it's going to be a long night for the poor guy, and me .
) I waited too long and one of the fish has already passed away, but I'll go into more detail on that later. Anyway so the fish had been showing visible signs for three days now that I know of, could have been longer but I was on holiday vaca. The surviving fish is a two-barred rabbitfish and the deceased was a mertensii butterfly. I had an hour and a half drive home after work (holiday traffic :mad and by the end I wasn't holding out much hope for the butterfly. Aside from the velvet he also appeared to have an advanced bacterial infection as there were tiny open wounds speckled all over his body. About half way home he started to lay on his side and his breathing slowed. At the time I remembered the salvage thread made by Humble and that lowering the temperature can help keep the fish alive a little longer, so I tried to cool my car down to try and somewhat achieve that. Being that I had such a long drive it was plenty of time to get my head straight (I was panicking a bit because I felt so bad for the butterfly ) and devise a plan. I decided to get them in a freshwater dip asap when I got home and then to perform a 30 min hydrogen peroxide bath, like I did with Lips (I still don't have acriflavine but I'm going straight to Amazon prime after this ), then straight into QT pre-dosed with Coppersafe. By the time I got the freshwater dip ready I knew the butterfly wasn't going to make it, his breathing was rapid at this point but he couldn't got off his side. He ended up passing away about 3min into the dip. I left the body in to check for flukes, that I saw none came from him or the rabbitfish that was swimming around and doing much better. I did have the forethought to take a couple postmortem pics while the rabbitfish was taking his bath. I also tried to take pictures of the rabbit after he went into QT, but it's dark in the room now so I wasn't having much success and my cat decided to jump onto the table and scare the poor fish . I decided to leave him be at that point, but hopefully I'll have more and better pictures of him tomorrow, the butterfly will also get a proper burial with my other fish.If you have really good eyes then you can see the spots mostly on his head. The rest is hard to see even in person because he camos the second the look at him funny.
The pictures don't show it as well as I would like but throughout the butterfly's body, mostly around the head and fins, there were tiny open wounds and a general "bloody" appearance under the surface. It looked almost as if he had a bunch of veins burst right underneath the scales. This is what I assume to be the bacterial infection at play.
Props to whoever reads through all that
. I'll give another update on rabbit tomorrow morning, it's going to be a long night for the poor guy, and me .
melypr1985
totally addicted
Well I am suddenly and unexpectedly resurrecting this thread from the grave. I wasn't expecting it to be back up quite so soon but opportunity showed itself and, although somewhat inconvenient timing, I am going to grab it by the horns as I wish to further my experience and knowledge. After debating on it for two days I decided today that I would bring home two fish that are heavily infected with velvet. Unfortunately because of my indecision (financial issues, I was trying to be logical
If you have really good eyes then you can see the spots mostly on his head. The rest is hard to see even in person because he camos the second the look at him funny.
The pictures don't show it as well as I would like but throughout the butterfly's body, mostly around the head and fins, there were tiny open wounds and a general "bloody" appearance under the surface. It looked almost as if he had a bunch of veins burst right underneath the scales. This is what I assume to be the bacterial infection at play.
Props to whoever reads through all that
Wow. Good try with the butterfly. Butterflies seem to be very susceptible to these types of infections. They take them down pretty fast. Good luck with the rabbitfish! I look forward to seeing how he does for you.
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Welcome back looking forward to this thread again
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GHsaltie
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I can't help but beat myself up for waiting an extra day before bringing them home. I think it would have made a world of difference for the butterfly if I hadn't waited, but it's too late now. I'll just have to do the best I can for the rabbit.
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Hey it's in the past relax ur doing more then most people.
Take it as a learning experience for next time
I think ur doing great
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GHsaltie
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Haha thanks, I'll do that! Even just a year ago I never would have imagined I'd be doing something like this. It's kind of weird to think about
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There u go progress not perfection
@GHsaltie You can already see signs of infection on the butterfly, so that would have been an uphill battle.
Did you use hydrogen peroxide in lieu of acriflavine/formalin on the rabbitfish? I believe that will work as a suitable alternative for the chemical bath component of the protocol, but have yet to test it for myself. What dosage did you use and for how long? I was planning on starting out with 1 mL per gal of H202 for 30 mins as per @twilliard.
Did you use hydrogen peroxide in lieu of acriflavine/formalin on the rabbitfish? I believe that will work as a suitable alternative for the chemical bath component of the protocol, but have yet to test it for myself. What dosage did you use and for how long? I was planning on starting out with 1 mL per gal of H202 for 30 mins as per @twilliard.
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GHsaltie
Valuable Member
@Humblefish. Yes I honestly wasn't going to take on any more projects until I had gotten some acriflavine, but in the end I caved . I knew they were going to die if I left them, so may as well give it a shot.
I used the same amount as I did for Lips the Koran angel, so 1tsp(5ml) for 3g at 30min, that was the amount figured using the purple tang rescue thread as a guide. He probably could have gone longer than that as he was doing good in the bath, but I didn't want to risk it with my limited knowledge.
I added the final dose of copper this morning and he already seems to be doing better, it's hard to tell though because he's so incredibly skittish. Slightest movement outside the tank and he darts into the pvc completely camoflouged. I did see something though that I'm not certain if it was my imagination or not, but it almost looked like he had spots of black ich. Maybe if I sit still by the tank for a few minutes he'll forget I'm there and I can take a better look at him.
. I knew they were going to die if I left them, so may as well give it a shot. I used the same amount as I did for Lips the Koran angel, so 1tsp(5ml) for 3g at 30min, that was the amount figured using the purple tang rescue thread as a guide. He probably could have gone longer than that as he was doing good in the bath, but I didn't want to risk it with my limited knowledge.
I added the final dose of copper this morning and he already seems to be doing better, it's hard to tell though because he's so incredibly skittish. Slightest movement outside the tank and he darts into the pvc completely camoflouged. I did see something though that I'm not certain if it was my imagination or not, but it almost looked like he had spots of black ich. Maybe if I sit still by the tank for a few minutes he'll forget I'm there and I can take a better look at him.
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GHsaltie
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The more I watch him I'm starting to think he has black ich as well. I've only seen it once before in person on a powder brown tang so I can't be certain on the ID. The spots almost seem to come and go as his stress pattern changes, but there are most definitely a handful that stay consistent.
This picture you can see the velvet spots all over his head, it's hard to see it anywhere else on him.
This picture you can see the velvet spots all over his head, it's hard to see it anywhere else on him.
Rabbitfish will get dark splotches sometimes, these are just stress spots.
I hope he makes it. If this works then it will be the first time (I am aware of) that H202 has been successfully used as the bath component in lieu of acriflavine or formalin. Hydrogen peroxide is much easier to obtain in a "velvet emergency" situation.
I hope he makes it. If this works then it will be the first time (I am aware of) that H202 has been successfully used as the bath component in lieu of acriflavine or formalin. Hydrogen peroxide is much easier to obtain in a "velvet emergency" situation.
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GHsaltie
Valuable Member
Sorry I haven't gotten back to this thread I meant to update earlier this week but I've been completely worn out from my job. After doing some reading and referencing to pictures I am as confident as I can be at this point that he has/had black ich. I took into consideration the fact that he camouflages quite readily (and sometimes minutely) but after observing him for several minutes and he finally calmed down at seeing me I determined that the black specks were not a part of his camo. I also noticed that his skin was slightly raised in each place that there was a speck. After some more reading I decided to take the risk of dosing prazi pro in combo with the copper. He handled it very well and is definitely on the mend, he's even starting to eat a lot more than the first day which makes me super happy as he was a bit thin. I'm actually starting to doubt my initial presumption of velvet because I can't see any evidence on him, not like I did with Lips the koran or others I've seen with it. I know for sure that he looked to have velvet before I brought him home and up until tuesday morning I could see evidence of it. Now you wouldn't even think anything was wrong with him unless you looked super close. Perhaps I was mistaken or maybe it hadn't gotten bad yet and was able to clear up faster? I wish I'd thought to get a picture of him before taking him home, then I could at least reference back to that. Oh well, whatever the case is I'm just glad he's doing better! Going to keep a watchful eye on him and make sure it stays that way.
melypr1985
totally addicted
Awesome! You probably hit that sweet spot between knowing velvet is there and getting him treatment in time to make it seamless.
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GHsaltie
Valuable Member
Thank you! Still got so much to learn, but I'm really enjoying it. I have definitely noticed though that it's a lot easier for me to differentiate between ich and velvet when I see the fish in person, pictures appear to be lot more difficult. It's really tragic to see a fish afflicted by an illness, especially working where I do and having to see it so often but I find it very rewarding to treat what fish I can, even when the outcome is not as I would like. It's weirdly addicting too . (I'll make sure to get some better pictures tomorrow, with the actual camera instead of my phone .)
My wife gets so embarrassed when we go into a new LFS, and I ask to see all their sick fish.
Doesn't always endear me to shop owner either.
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