Lionfish Lair
Renee
I bet your hopes would be dashed, DMan.
How I Cipro
- Thread starter Amoo
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This is what Minh posted a long time ago when they looked into it:
Disposal of antibiotic containing water:
There is no special treatment needed for disposing water containing antibiotics. Cipro and Septra will break down quickly with light exposure and will not stay around long in the environment. Short course of antibiotic use like in this protocol should not have significant impact on the environment. It is harmful for the environment if there is a continuous low level antibiotic discharge, but not for short courses like in this protocol . In human usage, these two antibiotics are eliminated unchanged by the kidney, and flushed down the toilet into the sewage system, which is what we are doing with our treatment water. It is unclear if treatment by bleach will do anything to the antibiotic. If you are concerned, store the water and put it under sunlight for a few days then discard.
I clean the hospital tank and all equipments thoroughly include bleaching the full set up in fresh water. Once thoroughly cleaned, the hospital tank can be dry and put into storage until needed.
ash9965
Well-Known Member
would this product work and would I just cut in half for the 250 mg dose and maybe dissolve in a cup of water before adding to the tank ? Thanks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fish-Life-C...e0e80db&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=331812970518
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fish-Life-C...e0e80db&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=331812970518
I have an exotic BTA that is not doing well right now, and I have started a treatment with Kenaplex. Has anyone used this before? I have consulted a couple of trusted industry people and was recommended this over other meds that I have. I'm already seeing an improvement on the nem in question within a few hours.
Cipro has been ordered, but it wont be here for a few days.
Video before treatment.
Cipro has been ordered, but it wont be here for a few days.
Video before treatment.
Nemguy123
Well-Known Member
cipro doesn't stay around long enough to get into the water system as said in the thread light diminishes it so dumping it outside is fine or down the drain. i got my copra from my grandpas neighbor who is a pharmacist and he said drain or outside is fine 
also i just started treating my purple gig today and he detached from the rock is this normal he's still really sticky and a bit deflated with gaping mouth
also i just started treating my purple gig today and he detached from the rock is this normal he's still really sticky and a bit deflated with gaping mouth
When we take Cipro, our body excreted the Cipro unchanged in Urine. We flush this down the toilet. It should not cause significant problem flush Cipro from our treatment water down the toilet.
mcarroll
10K Club member
cipro doesn't stay around long enough to get into the water system as said in the thread light diminishes it so dumping it outside is fine or down the drain. i got my copra from my grandpas neighbor who is a pharmacist and he said drain or outside is fine
Nothing personal here as the info being traded above was admittedly dated when it first came up in this thread. I just hate to see threads about antibiotics where people are taking their use lightly and this meme about the environment not being impacted keeps being repeated. That's two strikes.
This casualness with antibiotics is popular at times, but never appropriate. And in 2017 we should know better than to assume no impact to the environment.
So in the spirit of "appropriate use of technology" use this stuff when it's truly called for, but please check this out and me mindful in its use and disposal...
Cipro = Ciprofloxacin which is a fluoroquinone, a specific (and popular) type of Quinolone.
If you have been, are, or will be a Cipro user (on your self or your pets) read those links.
Especially the What should I know about storage and disposal of this medication? section of the first link but even read the Wikipedia one!
Light
There is way more light on surface waters (creeks, streams, rivers) than many of us have over our reefs, let alone on our hospital tanks.
Mostly our light is devoid of UV compared to sunlight – even if you have halide, T5 and LED UV emitters running.
Yet:
"Fluoroquinolones and their metabolites are found in surface and ground waters, indicating their ineffective removal by conventional water treatment technologies."
Kinetics and mechanism of advanced oxidation processes (AOPs) in degradation of ciprofloxacin in water (PDF)
Kinetics and mechanism of advanced oxidation processes (AOPs) in degradation of ciprofloxacin in water (PDF)
Water treatment facilities are looking at specialized ways to remove Cipro from wastewater because of its popularity and because it doesn't break down as ideally as we have been portraying it here and probably elsewhere.
It may be worth noting that the article didn't claim that Cipro and it's family of metabolites break down adequately in light as we have repeated over and over. I haven't seen anything claim that so far, but I'm still reading.
Anyone wants to help out with the reading, here's a starting point:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=ciprofloxacin+degradation+in+water
Cipro/fluoroquinones are pretty nasty antibiotics that seem to have the same problems as other antibiotics, only worse...probably at least in part since they are synthetic.
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mcarroll
10K Club member
Biodegradation of ciprofloxacin in water and soil and its effects on the microbial communities
(PDF)
"Ciprofloxacin is recalcitrant to biodegradation and transformation in the aqueous system."
I keep seeing the opposite of adequate degradation. That's from the Journal of Hazardous Materials.
(PDF)
"Ciprofloxacin is recalcitrant to biodegradation and transformation in the aqueous system."
I keep seeing the opposite of adequate degradation. That's from the Journal of Hazardous Materials.
Many of us including myself are in the medical field. In fact, a doctor just posted above you here on this page. That's great that you found "one" article that points out how horrible Cipro is on the environment. I've been working around antibiotic therapy for over 10 years and the doctor above for 20+. We're well aware of what happens to antibiotics after they leave the body or our aquariums. Thanks for your info though.
IMO, the problem with Cipro in industrial usage is the chronic use. In the past Cipro was added into chicken feed. This result in constant low dose Cipro in the chicken themselves and in the waste run off which is full of bacterial. This intern cause low level of Cipro constantly in the environment there and where ever the run off get to. This in-turn will cause Cipro resistant and all the problems associated with this. Also people who have Cipro allergy may have allergic reaction to eating chicken, even if the producer suppose to withhold antibiotic for a specific duration of time before slaughter the chicken. Fortunately the FDA put a stop to this in the US, but in other country this is still going on.
Cipro was introduced back in 1985 or so. It was initially market to doctor as: "...you (doctors) don't have to think, just prescribe Cipro and it will cover the pathogen..."
There was a huge back lash on this initial advertisement campaign. It was changed after a few months. The point is it was an extremely effective broad spectrum antibiotic at the beginning. However, because of the mechanism of action, which I will not go into here, and because to the way it was use, in industrial, bacterial become resistant to it fairly quickly. Cipro only have limited use at this time.
Cipro was introduced back in 1985 or so. It was initially market to doctor as: "...you (doctors) don't have to think, just prescribe Cipro and it will cover the pathogen..."
There was a huge back lash on this initial advertisement campaign. It was changed after a few months. The point is it was an extremely effective broad spectrum antibiotic at the beginning. However, because of the mechanism of action, which I will not go into here, and because to the way it was use, in industrial, bacterial become resistant to it fairly quickly. Cipro only have limited use at this time.
Lionfish Lair
Renee
There's a lot of studies out there in regards pharmaceutical waste and cipro... it's not necessarily as innocent as is said in this thread and I'm not sure why we're saying there's only one article out there that says it's not and can great environmental issues. One person pouring stuff down a drain isn't an issue... it's when it's a practice by many.
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You are welcome to read and summarized these articles and posted them, please mention your source. Maybe you can find out how many tons of ciprofloxacin are been use each year in the world today, and estimate how much of these were used by reefers. I can assure you that what reefers use is not a problem.
In appropriate use of antibiotic is always a problem. As with all antibiotic, there is big problem with inadequate chronic exposure which select for resistant. Short term use like what my protocol call for is essentially the same as normal use of Cipro. The 1/2 life of Cipro in full sun is in the number of hours. There are other mechanism of breakdown also.
As I mentioned before, the normal dose for Cipro in human is 500 mg twice a day for 7-14 days. Our body excrete Cipro in the urine unchanged, and we flushed it down the toilet. With the light exposure, if you follow my protocol, the dose you put into the toilet is significantly less than 250 mg (due to light break down) once a day for 7-10 days. This is less than 1/2 of the amount a normal course would add to the sewage. If you worry, just keep the water, put it in full sun a day or two the flush it. While you at it, when ever you take Cipro, keep your urine and expose it to full sun for a few days before you flush it down the toilet.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Cipro protocol I wrote back in 2013 save a lot of anemones. Many of us now can keep Gigantea anemone. Before 2013 there may be less than a dozen Gigantea in captivity long term here or on Reef Central that I know about. This number is uncountable today.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Is this a challenge and you think there's only one? On search of pubmed or google scholar would do that and give you summaries.
I'm not sure I understand the nature of this invitation.
???
To have that much confidence, I'd like to see some sources for this.
I'd also like to know how you worked out the correct dose since you have such a wide range of target and non-target organisms to be dosed in a given reef tank?
Please share sources.
----
Did I misread the intent of post #32? I thought there was recognition of the problem in that post.
Do what you like since it's a free country and we can get anything on the internet, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't address a problem by piling onto it and becoming part of it.
I agree that antibiotic exposure to the environment can be, and is, a problem. While the usage of Cipro was, and is, a problem; Reefers use Cipro does not contribute to the problem because the way we use it, if my protocol is follow. Each course we use result in disposal to the sewer system significantly less amount than the normal usage, plus the amount that reefer use is minuscule in comparison to the total amount of Cipro used. The problem is in constant discharge of antibiotic, like in hospital discharge, or livestock waste if antibiotic is added to the feed. This is where the damage is done. In the US, Cipro is no longer added to chicken feed, however this is not the same in other part of the world.
I am not going to keep on repeat myself saying the same thing.
The dose I came up with by calculation the volume of distribution of Cipro when taken by human. I approximate the amount needed for the concentration of Cipro in treatment tank. If I have all the resources in the world, I would just measure the concentration of Cipro in the tank water, but I don't.
The important thing is it works. This protocol saved a lot of anemones.
Post #32 point out where was the problem in abusing antibiotic, especially this antibiotic. In no way we are piling to the problem. We are not abusing antibiotic by using Cipro per protocol. We are saving the live of many anemones. We are given these anemones a fighting chance of surviving after they were collected and ship 1/2 way around the world. For the minor, if any risk, we improve the survival rate of these anemone by a huge amount. Like you said, this is a free country. If you choose to waste the lives of these anemones, or chose not to keep them, it is your choice. Fortunately, I and most anemone lovers tend to disagree with your view, and agree with mine.
I am not going to keep on repeat myself saying the same thing.
The dose I came up with by calculation the volume of distribution of Cipro when taken by human. I approximate the amount needed for the concentration of Cipro in treatment tank. If I have all the resources in the world, I would just measure the concentration of Cipro in the tank water, but I don't.
The important thing is it works. This protocol saved a lot of anemones.
Post #32 point out where was the problem in abusing antibiotic, especially this antibiotic. In no way we are piling to the problem. We are not abusing antibiotic by using Cipro per protocol. We are saving the live of many anemones. We are given these anemones a fighting chance of surviving after they were collected and ship 1/2 way around the world. For the minor, if any risk, we improve the survival rate of these anemone by a huge amount. Like you said, this is a free country. If you choose to waste the lives of these anemones, or chose not to keep them, it is your choice. Fortunately, I and most anemone lovers tend to disagree with your view, and agree with mine.
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I am sorry I did not read all the posts closely and missed this post. I have not visit this site for a while.
I did my research on Cipro way back in the 2012 time frame, not recently. I did not this read this article, and did not purchase this article at this time. Do you happen to have access to this article. I would love to read it, short of buying it. I love to know the setting of this study.
I did read a few back when I was research and try Cipro as treatment. All the articles I check back then about environmental degradation of Cipro did their evaluation in two type of settings: either hospital discharge, or industrial livestock farm where Cipro was used in the feed. This is so different from our setting that these result isn't really relevant, IMO. I realized that in these setting Cipro, and other antibiotic, is a problem. I remembered mentioned a little about this in the original write up.
Another point for reefers who are concern to consider: In order for Cipro, or other antibiotic to have a impact on the environment, it have to be in high enough concentration to negatively affect the grow of some bacterial, there fore exert influence in selecting for registrant in the population of bacterial. This type of concentration only happen in discharge in the two setting mentioned above, from my evaluation back then. Just because Cipro is detectable in highly sensitive measurements, it does not mean that it is a problem.
When Cipro is in sediments, it is more stable with chemical binding, and the sediment protect it from light thus the 1/2 life is longer. This is also not relevant in our treatment tank since we should only use an inert object for anemone to attach, or at worst a small piece of rock.
Here is a cut and paste of my original write up a few years ago:
Chitown tom
Active Member
Is doxycycline an available option in stead of Cipro?
As a pharmacist, I find myself feeling very uncomfortable with the arguments in this thread. On the one hand, I agree that the use of Cipro as described here will, on the whole, have almost no impact on the environment. However, the arguments presented for this are, frankly, completely bogus. Not because there aren't snippets of truth involved (yes, ciprofloxacin will degrade in sunlight), but because the assumptions being made have no basis in scientific fact.
First, unless someone has done a placebo controlled trial to fully demonstrate that using 250-500mg of the drug is required to "save" these nems, it makes no sense to use that much drug. That dose is designed to treat infections in a full grown human. That we use this much to treat a creature that weighs a few ounces is ludicrous. There is literally no basis in fact that this treatment works other than "well, I did this, they lived, so this must be the exact right way of doing it." But this is equivalent to me using 1000 gallons of water to put out a match and saying that is the best way of doing it. Quite frankly, we can't even say for certain that the Cipro does anything at all in this 'protocol'. Was a comparison done to see if you got the same results doing the exact same water changes, light/dark maintenance, etc without the drug? The Cipro might have nothing to do with it.
Second, stating that cipro degrades in sunlight so leave the water out for a couple of days and all is well is disingenuous. It degrades, but it breaks down to smaller molecules that may have just as much harm to the environment as the original drug. Do I know that for sure, no, but neither do we know that they are harmless. Also, using the phrase 'unchanged in the urine' the way it has in these posts is erroneous. Cipro is cleared multiple ways by the human body, but only 30-50% is unchanged in the urine (per the package insert).
So, that all being said, why do I think that there is almost no impact? Numbers. The number of reefers not only spending the effort to track down Cipro, but to use it as discussed above is exceedingly small compared to the number of humans using it as originally intended. But that is not a reason to dismiss that Cipro being used in this manner may be harmful to the environment. After all, just because I may only throw one of a thousand plastic bags I use in the ocean doesn't make it right that I throw that one. Personally, you won't find me doing this, but that's because I feel uncomfortable using human sized doses of an antibiotic on a 2 ounce bundle of protein, not because of environmental concerns. But that doesn't mean those that have those concerns are wrong.
Feel free to use or not use this system, that is certainly every reefers choice. But neither side should be taking such hard stands that it is or is not good for the environment. At least not using the arguments being stated here.
First, unless someone has done a placebo controlled trial to fully demonstrate that using 250-500mg of the drug is required to "save" these nems, it makes no sense to use that much drug. That dose is designed to treat infections in a full grown human. That we use this much to treat a creature that weighs a few ounces is ludicrous. There is literally no basis in fact that this treatment works other than "well, I did this, they lived, so this must be the exact right way of doing it." But this is equivalent to me using 1000 gallons of water to put out a match and saying that is the best way of doing it. Quite frankly, we can't even say for certain that the Cipro does anything at all in this 'protocol'. Was a comparison done to see if you got the same results doing the exact same water changes, light/dark maintenance, etc without the drug? The Cipro might have nothing to do with it.
Second, stating that cipro degrades in sunlight so leave the water out for a couple of days and all is well is disingenuous. It degrades, but it breaks down to smaller molecules that may have just as much harm to the environment as the original drug. Do I know that for sure, no, but neither do we know that they are harmless. Also, using the phrase 'unchanged in the urine' the way it has in these posts is erroneous. Cipro is cleared multiple ways by the human body, but only 30-50% is unchanged in the urine (per the package insert).
So, that all being said, why do I think that there is almost no impact? Numbers. The number of reefers not only spending the effort to track down Cipro, but to use it as discussed above is exceedingly small compared to the number of humans using it as originally intended. But that is not a reason to dismiss that Cipro being used in this manner may be harmful to the environment. After all, just because I may only throw one of a thousand plastic bags I use in the ocean doesn't make it right that I throw that one. Personally, you won't find me doing this, but that's because I feel uncomfortable using human sized doses of an antibiotic on a 2 ounce bundle of protein, not because of environmental concerns. But that doesn't mean those that have those concerns are wrong.
Feel free to use or not use this system, that is certainly every reefers choice. But neither side should be taking such hard stands that it is or is not good for the environment. At least not using the arguments being stated here.
davhatl,
You certainly have arguments that have a lot of holes in it.
Regarding the effectiveness of the protocol, I can assure you that as someone who keep anemones for 20 years, these is no question that it is effective. With regard to H. magnifica and S. gigantea, this protocol is particularly effective in drastically improve the survival of these anemones.
Regarding the fate of ciprofloxacin from our body, all the intact cipro are discharge in urine unchanged. Less than 1% of cipro that eliminated though liver/stool pathway are unchanged. The rest got metabolized to inactive/minimally active metabolites by liver.
Regarding the amount needed to treat these anemones, the antibiotic concentration depends on the volume of distribution. In human, the volume of distribution is large, the normal dose is 1000 mg/60 kg person/day. In our treatment tank, the volume of distribution is in the water, not in the anemone. Dosage recommended 250 mg/10 gal (~40 kg)/day. Dose was decreased due to I estimate that there is no effective method of degradation of med in our tank other than the light. There is no way we can deliver the medication jut to the anemone and keep it there. I am very surprise, and have credible evidence to question your expertise as a pharmacist. If I have unlimited resources, i would just do scientifically study and measure the drug level thus know exact amount to dose.
There are plenty of studies which show the major pathway for ciprofloxacin degradation in the environment is by light, especially in solution. Once it is bonded to the soil, which I don't have to worry about here, the method of degradation is much more nebulous, and depends on biological degradation.
I am going on vacation. Typing this as I go out the door so I did not have time to do much scrutiny of your post or much preparation for my reply.
However, I am glad that you agree with me that what reefers use are of negligible effect on the environment, and responsible use (not mentioned by you), as recommended in the protocol.
You certainly have arguments that have a lot of holes in it.
Regarding the effectiveness of the protocol, I can assure you that as someone who keep anemones for 20 years, these is no question that it is effective. With regard to H. magnifica and S. gigantea, this protocol is particularly effective in drastically improve the survival of these anemones.
Regarding the fate of ciprofloxacin from our body, all the intact cipro are discharge in urine unchanged. Less than 1% of cipro that eliminated though liver/stool pathway are unchanged. The rest got metabolized to inactive/minimally active metabolites by liver.
Regarding the amount needed to treat these anemones, the antibiotic concentration depends on the volume of distribution. In human, the volume of distribution is large, the normal dose is 1000 mg/60 kg person/day. In our treatment tank, the volume of distribution is in the water, not in the anemone. Dosage recommended 250 mg/10 gal (~40 kg)/day. Dose was decreased due to I estimate that there is no effective method of degradation of med in our tank other than the light. There is no way we can deliver the medication jut to the anemone and keep it there. I am very surprise, and have credible evidence to question your expertise as a pharmacist. If I have unlimited resources, i would just do scientifically study and measure the drug level thus know exact amount to dose.
There are plenty of studies which show the major pathway for ciprofloxacin degradation in the environment is by light, especially in solution. Once it is bonded to the soil, which I don't have to worry about here, the method of degradation is much more nebulous, and depends on biological degradation.
I am going on vacation. Typing this as I go out the door so I did not have time to do much scrutiny of your post or much preparation for my reply.
However, I am glad that you agree with me that what reefers use are of negligible effect on the environment, and responsible use (not mentioned by you), as recommended in the protocol.
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