How to Quarantine

[Humblefish]

Is there anything to help lighten the load of daily water changes?

You can use a HOB powerfilter (exs. Aquaclear, Bio-wheel) to help break down ammonia in QT. You'll need to seed the bio-media (exs. sponge, bio-wheel) the filter contains with a "bacteria in a bottle" product such as Bio-Spira, Seachem Stability or Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria. Because medication is already present in the QT water, I would seed it in a bucket (with non-medicated water) for 3-4 days before using in the QT.

AND can liquid Prime be dosed with powder CP safely?

Yes

This morning I found him laying on the bottom, breading heavily and unable to straighten himself up.

Do you think I can save him? Is there an appropriate medicine for this?

Is he still in copper? If so, I would remove him from that ASAP. HLLE and other side effects are known to occur if a fish has been exposed to copper for too long.

 

[LetItReef]

I will need to set-up a QT tank and my question I have is, how long do I need to cycle at QT tank? Thanks!

 

[Humblefish]

I will need to set-up a QT tank and my question I have is, how long do I need to cycle at QT tank? Thanks!

Minimum of 4 weeks; but the process can be greatly expedited by using one of those "bacteria in a bottle" products exs. Bio-Spira, Seachem Stability, Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria.

 

[kloweeeeee]

Hi all, I just wanted to see if I could get some input on slowly raising the copper level. After a heartbreaking loss with our first Foxface, we've worked up the courage to try again.

-How would y'all recommend I space out the dosing with the Cupramine so that the level is slowly risen? (Instead of the suggested "dose, wait 48 hrs, repeat," as the bottle recommends)
-Should I bring it to the full 0.5mg/L or maybe keep it at a lower level?

 

[Humblefish]

Should I bring it to the full 0.5mg/L or maybe keep it at a lower level?

0.5 mg/L is fine but take 4-5 days (or even longer) to bring it to that level. Add a little bit every day, or even cut the dose in 1/2 and do it twice daily. Anything you can do to ease the fish into the copper environment.

Another option is to try a chelated copper product (ex. Coppersafe) instead. However, you will also need to purchase an API copper test kit to measure Coppersafe. There is some anecdotal evidence that chelated copper is gentler on fish than ionic, which is what Cupramine is.

 

[kloweeeeee]

0.5 mg/L is fine but take 4-5 days (or even longer) to bring it to that level. Add a little bit every day, or even cut the dose in 1/2 and do it twice daily. Anything you can do to ease the fish into the copper environment.

Another option is to try a chelated copper product (ex. Coppersafe) instead. However, you will also need to purchase an API copper test kit to measure Coppersafe. There is some anecdotal evidence that chelated copper is gentler on fish than ionic, which is what Cupramine is.

Okay, thank you for the info. I have Coppersafe as well, I just find it much harder to read the API test card because the colors are so vague and its not as easy reading from the top. I'm just scared I would misjudge something.

 

[Humblefish]

Okay, thank you for the info. I have Coppersafe as well, I just find it much harder to read the API test card because the colors are so vague and its not as easy reading from the top. I'm just scared I would misjudge something.

What I do is ask my wife to double check my reading. Four eyes are better than two.

 

[Brew12]

I finally have my first fish in my QT. I have 2 clowns and 1 royal gramma.
The fish looked to be very healthy in the store and the owner said he hasn't seen any signs of Ich or received any complaints from customers recently.
Would it be a smart plan to proactively treat with Prazipro and hold off on copper treatment while I observe over the next month? I have the coppersafe on hand if I see any symptoms.
I had always planned on treating with copper but now that the fish are actually real and in the QT I am rethinking if I want to expose them to copper unnecessarily. What can I say... I'm a softy.​

 

[Humblefish]

@Brew12 TTM would be ideal for a RG and 2 clowns: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

You can even dose Prazi whilst performing TTM.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 TTM would be ideal for a RG and 2 clowns: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

You can even dose Prazi whilst performing TTM.

Yeah... but I picked up all the equipment to do copper treatment so I'm not set up for TTM Not to mention that I have 2 big dogs in the house so I am space limited on where I could keep the extra needed tanks. They are curious dogs!

I just need to stick with the plan. The gramma just started eating yesterday night. No signs of anything wrong yet so I will start my Prazi treatment this morning and do copper as planned. And just so you know, having a 120g tank completely set up and ready but empty of fish @$%@! It's harder to stick to the plan than I expected!

 

[Humblefish]

I just need to stick with the plan. The gramma just started eating yesterday night. No signs of anything wrong yet so I will start my Prazi treatment this morning and do copper as planned. And just so you know, having a 120g tank completely set up and ready but empty of fish @$%@! It's harder to stick to the plan than I expected!

The gramma would most likely show visible symptoms of ich, but the clowns probably would not. So, prophylactically treating with Cu for 30 days is a wise course of action.

 

[Zoaeasy]

Thanks Humblefish. I am redoing a 30 L and transferring a 36 Gallon to a 60 gallon. I plan to fully quarantine everything going into both . The only things moving directly over will be the 4 fish from the 36 to the 60. Picking up a couple of 10 gallons and HOB filters.

 

[Brew12]

The gramma would most likely show visible symptoms of ich, but the clowns probably would not. So, prophylactically treating with Cu for 30 days is a wise course of action.

I know. I am just finding out first hand why it is that so many people, especially those new to the hobby, don't quarantine. After putting untold hours and sinking large amounts of money into a tank only to let it sit fishless is a huge mental challenge. But, I keep reminding myself that it will make things much easier on the back end.

 

[Humblefish]

I know. I am just finding out first hand why it is that so many people, especially those new to the hobby, don't quarantine. After putting untold hours and sinking large amounts of money into a tank only to let it sit fishless is a huge mental challenge. But, I keep reminding myself that it will make things much easier on the back end.

You also gotta remember QT'ing, like everything else in this hobby, is a learn as you go process. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it. I bet many SPS coral experts killed mushrooms & xenia when they were first starting out.

 

[VJV]

@Humblefish have been thinking about a shorter QT protocol and would like your views on it. The idea would be to dose the QT with cupramine prior to adding the fish. According to Seachem cupramine is effective on Velvet at a concentration of 0,15 and on ich at 0,25. By doing this way I would kill any free swimming stage Tomites or Protomonts, and would o my have to wait 7 days for any Trophonts that could be attached to the fish to drop of and die as well.

I would dose the tank to 0,30 before adding the fish and acclimate them to the QT over a long period (6h) in a suitably large volume of water with a drip system, so that copper would rise slowly. Seachem recommends bringing the concentration up to 0,25 in one go so I guess this should tolerable on the fish. The big advantage would be that by preventing any protomonts from encysting a week (or 10 days to be on the safe side) would be enough to control ich. Velvet free swimming dinospores may last up to 15 days but not in copper medicated water so the 10 days would be enough as well. After those 10 days another week to do two Prazi treatments and the fish would be ready for main display. This would be under three weeks instead of the 6-8 weeks of the typical method. It would also subject the fish to much less copper, which is a poison.


Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Humblefish]

@VJV I may have asked you this already, but can you get chelated copper (exs. Coppersafe, Copper Power) over there? This is the reason why: I advise many LFS, and one in particular flat out told me the fish could only spend 10 days in copper before being moved to the retail system. For this to have any chance of eradicating ich & velvet, the fish would need to go into full therapeutic copper from Day 1. His wholesaler only sells Cupramine, so that's what we tried first and it was a disaster! I convinced him to switch over to Copper Power and probably only 5-10% of the fish die now.

Another LFS I advise is doing the same (using Coppersafe), full therapeutic from Day 1, and is having similar success. I can't explain why fish seem to tolerate chelated copper better than ionic, but there is growing anecdotal evidence of it.

 

[VJV]

Thanks. Unfortunately I do not have access to either of those medications. There are others but these may have other elements besides copper and I have never read about them in any forum so that makes me kind of nervous. On cupramine, why was it a disaster? Were you dosing at 0,25? 0,50 and the fish would not survive? Seachem states that cupramine would kill velvet at 0,15,-0,25 ich at 0,25-0,35...

 

[VJV]

Just checked their website and they now state a full dose of 0,50 is required... I am 100% sure I had read the other concentrations previously... I guess they must have changed them in the meantime. It makes me trust Seachem less every time...

 

[Humblefish]

@VJV I would only trust 0.15 - 0.20 mg/L if you were dosing pure Copper sulfate (i.e. copper sulfate pentahydrate) and using a lab grade Cu test kit. Daily monitoring would be required to ensure the Cu level was remaining stable & within range.

For Cupramine, 0.5 is what you want to shoot for. That gives you some wiggle room in case the Cu level fluctuates and also takes into account slight inaccuracies when using a hobbyist grade test kit.

 

[VJV]

@Humblefish Thanks! Than I guess I will try another method which would be a mix of TTM with normal copper [emoji4]. I will add the fish to a separate QT tank where I will increase cupramine concentration slowly for one week until 0,5 is reached. At the end of that I will move the fish to a second QT tank that is already running at full dose for another week and I am done with copper. Only one week at full dose instead of 4.

The cysts that may have had time to form while concentration is ramped up will be left in the first tank so I am sure that when I transfer to the second one only the trophonts will be added. These have 3-7 day lifespan before they drop off so I should get them all [emoji847][emoji847][emoji847][emoji847][emoji847].

1- introduce fish to a small basic tank and ramp cupramine up to 0,5 during the first 5 days; (use a filter with seeded media)

2- transfer to "main" QT tank and keep at 0,50 for 7-10 days.

3- week three will be used for two Prazi treatments

4- week four observation

So I am still cutting in half the length of my previous method and actually increasing the effectiveness, whilst only subjecting the fish to one week of full dose instead of four.

Why do I believe this will be more effective? Because some Tomonts have been known to encyst for a lot longer than 4 weeks which means the standard 4 week copper may still let some slip by.

Will be trying this one from now on and let you know.