How to Quarantine

[clownsrcool]

When you are treating with copper how do you handle the ammonia that would build up in a system with little to no biological filtration? You cant mix copper with prime or ammonia reducers. So would you just do daily water changes and bring the copper levels back up to 0.5?

Copper makes me really nervous because I have only tried it once and the fish died.

 

[melypr1985]

When you are treating with copper how do you handle the ammonia that would build up in a system with little to no biological filtration? You cant mix copper with prime or ammonia reducers. So would you just do daily water changes and bring the copper levels back up to 0.5?

Copper makes me really nervous because I have only tried it once and the fish died.

If the tank isn't cycled yet then yes, you would do water changes as needed (sometimes daily) and add the copper to the new water before it's added to the tank. You don't want the levels to drop during treatment at all. Just be sure to take your time bringing the levels up in the first place so as not to shock the fish with it.

 

[Humblefish]

When you are treating with copper how do you handle the ammonia that would build up in a system with little to no biological filtration? You cant mix copper with prime or ammonia reducers. So would you just do daily water changes and bring the copper levels back up to 0.5?

If no bio-filter is present, your only option is to perform water changes to keep ammonia in check. However, the copper in the new water must perfectly match the copper level of your QT. Before adding it to the QT. You can mix it in a bucket before adding or have a "copper water vat" where it gets mixed beforehand. Failure to do this means the Cu level in the QT could drop below therapeutic, and if that happens (even for a second) you risk a theront being able to latch onto a fish. Restarting the parasite's lifecycle in your QT.

FWIW; I've never understood not having a bio-filter in QT. Even if it's not mature with bacteria, it will at least help control ammonia. A quick search on Amazon reveals the two products (below) would provide a 20 gal QT with a working bio-filter for $22.

+

 

[VJV]

I use a Tunze internal filter with Seachem Matrix media (it does not absorb cupramine or any medication that I have noticed) and has the added benefit of providing 1800L/h of flow, minimizing clutter. I keep a bag of Matrix in my main display so that it is seeded and ready to go into the QT, AND add Stability for the first week.

 

[VJV]

Just got my Solorensis Wrasse yesterday. It is B E A U T I F U L L!!!!! Full gown adult, beautiful colors. It is however, looking very lethargic. When I introduced him into the QT it just floated there for a while and than went into a PVC pipe and remained there for the rest of the day. Later I added the first dose of Cupramine (0,1) and did not notice any ganhe in behavior.

He is so beautiful that I am starting to think if I should do TTM + observation instead. However, what makes me think twice about TTM is that it would not be guaranteed to treat Velvet as well, and I could introduce it to my DT.

In need of some words of comfort here... [emoji853]

 

[VJV]

By the way, I also have a juvenile Yellow eye Kole Tang with the Wrasse.

 

[VJV]

A video of him today with cupramine at 0,1



I had just fed with some Flakes and he was active trying to eat them but spat the out. As soon as I leave the room he goes into hiding and stays there.

 

[Humblefish]

@VJV I wouldn't worry too much yet. After all, a) He's new and still trying to adjust to a new environment b) He's a wrasse and they are known for acting weird.

 

[cmcimino]

@Humblefish What is the purpose of keeping copper levels at therapeutic levels for 30 days? Cupramine says 14 days. I'm sure you have been asked this before, just curious for the reasoning behind it.

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish What is the purpose of keeping copper levels at therapeutic levels for 30 days? Cupramine says 14 days. I'm sure you have been asked this before, just curious for the reasoning behind it.

When a fish has ich (for example), the trophonts (feeding stage) drop off after 3-7 days. The parasite will then encyst and form tomonts, but it takes anywhere from 3-72 days for theronts (free swimming stage) to be released from the cysts. Theronts are the only stage which can reliably be eradicated using copper, hypo, etc. But if you stop & do the math, you would need to keep a fish in copper for a lot longer than 30 days to account for all strains of ich. However, most fish I've treated can only tolerate being in copper for 30 days max. Fortunately, 30 days is usually long enough as the 72 day variant is pretty rare; most strains finish their entire lifecycle in 30 days or less. But you should always observe (for at least 2 weeks) post treatment just to be sure 30 days was indeed long enough.

Hopefully that all makes sense.

 

[cmcimino]

When a fish has ich (for example), the trophonts (feeding stage) drop off after 3-7 days. The parasite will then encyst and form tomonts, but it takes anywhere from 3-72 days for theronts (free swimming stage) to be released from the cysts. Theronts are the only stage which can reliably be eradicated using copper, hypo, etc. But if you stop & do the math, you would need to keep a fish in copper for a lot longer than 30 days to account for all strains of ich. However, most fish I've treated can only tolerate being in copper for 30 days max. Fortunately, 30 days is usually long enough as the 72 day variant is pretty rare; most strains finish their entire lifecycle in 30 days or less. But you should always observe (for at least 2 weeks) post treatment just to be sure 30 days was indeed long enough.

Hopefully that all makes sense.

Great explanation! If I picked up a fish two weeks ago, and it did not have any signs of illness. I have him in a QT, and he has been eating like crazy. I'm on my second round of Prazipro, and figured I would start my copper next week. What are the chances of any tomonts existing in the water? I carefully made sure no store water made it in the tank, I even rinsed the fish in a second container before dumping in the net, and then into the tank.

 

[Humblefish]

What are the chances of any tomonts existing in the water? I carefully made sure no store water made it in the tank, I even rinsed the fish in a second container before dumping in the net, and then into the tank.

Tomonts can come from an infected fish; they form after the trophonts drop off. And keep in mind not every fish with ich will show symptoms, especially if the trophonts are harboring inside the gills.

 

[VJV]

Did the 5 day ramp up of cupramine on the Strigosus and the Solorensis Wrasse on the small QT and transferred them today to the larger QT pre dosed at 0,5... actually, when I looked at the Seachem test it looked to me closer to 0,6 than 0,5... the Wrasse also lost its color and went into hiding [emoji51][emoji51][emoji51] so I did a 10% water change to slightly lower concentration (now seems closer to 0,5 but that kit is impossible to read [emoji35][emoji35][emoji35] given it is a continuous gradation). And am now getting on a flight. Hope that when I get back I still have both fish [emoji51].

 

[VJV]

Quick question: if I put the net used to transfer the fish in a bucket with very hot water (65 Celsius) would any ich Tomont or trophonts survive?

 

[clownsrcool]

If no bio-filter is present, your only option is to perform water changes to keep ammonia in check. However, the copper in the new water must perfectly match the copper level of your QT. Before adding it to the QT. You can mix it in a bucket before adding or have a "copper water vat" where it gets mixed beforehand. Failure to do this means the Cu level in the QT could drop below therapeutic, and if that happens (even for a second) you risk a theront being able to latch onto a fish. Restarting the parasite's lifecycle in your QT.

FWIW; I've never understood not having a bio-filter in QT. Even if it's not mature with bacteria, it will at least help control ammonia. A quick search on Amazon reveals the two products (below) would provide a 20 gal QT with a working bio-filter for $22.

+

I have a power filter on the tank with biological filtration I just didn't know if the copper was going to kill off most of the beneficial bacteria when used. That's why I was asking that in case it does and I'd be left with basically no biological filtration.

 

[Humblefish]

Quick question: if I put the net used to transfer the fish in a bucket with very hot water (65 Celsius) would any ich Tomont or trophonts survive?

A study was done at 40C, but it took 1 hour for all tomonts, theronts to die off.

I have a power filter on the tank with biological filtration I just didn't know if the copper was going to kill off most of the beneficial bacteria when used. That's why I was asking that in case it does and I'd be left with basically no biological filtration.

The die-off will be minimal. If the bio-filter is healthy, colonies of nitrifying bacteria will quickly bounce back.

 

[VJV]

Thanks. How about that plus one week drying out?

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks. How about that plus one week drying out?

Another study showed 24 hrs drying time eradicates tomonts & theronts.

 

[TC3]

Here are my meds and my setup (sorry for the horrible pics). I did Paraguard (daily dose) for a week but the Kole Tang was acting weird after the 6th or 7th night. So, I did a large WC and started dosing Copper Safe. I also started the Prazipro as well. The tang is doing much better now. Eating well, swimming around like normal, deeper color, and nipping at the glass and other things in the QT tank. I also dose a small amount of prime every other day and the stability every 2 to 3 days.

Is there a better way to read the API copper test? Maybe I'm just color blind but I can't tell the differences. I don't think I'm at 0.5 but I'm afraid to dose anymore just in case I am wrong. Should I buy Seachem copper test kit instead? Has anyone had better luck with this kit? Thanks.

 

[TC3]

@Brew12 @melypr1985

Thanks!