Is it feasible to remove the skimmer? Could it solve the decades-long problem of nutrient accumulation?

[Belgian Anthias]

Not hard to see the clear effect, but I'm not sure 1 ppm per day is a good value since reef tanks without water changes rarely accumulate 365 ppm in a year. I used 0.1 ppm per day below, but the large effect of a water change is clear, its just the values along the axis that change when making different accumulation rate changes.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

Figure 2. Nitrate concentration as a function of time when performing water changes of 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month. In this example, nitrate is present at 0 ppm at the start, and is accumulated at a rate of 0.1 ppm per day when no water is changed.

Theoretically
Having a daily nitrate overproduction of only 0.1 ppm/daily doing daily water changes of 1% will prevent accumulation maintaining the level at 9.7-10ppm.
Doing monthly changes of 10% the level will accumulate reaching a level of +- 27-30ppm
Doing 30% monthly the level will be maintained at +- 7-10ppm

it all depends on the nitrate overproduction which should be near O, meaning all produced nitrogen is used up.

mixed reef systems with a skimmer, feeding normal commercial fish food, 0.5- 1ppm daily nitrate overproduction may be realistic.

 

[GARRIGA]

It may not be enough. I changed 1% daily. If that useful? I think so. It drops accumulating things by 74%. Is it enough to prevent all possible accumulations? No.

Setting aside the cost and just considering the convenience of not changing water. Could running 1% of the water through DI resin daily not solve the same issue? Granted an RO membrane would be more cost effective as a pre filter before that DI yet not practical for this application but for some of us the convenience might be all that matters.

 

[J1a]

Setting aside the cost and just considering the convenience of not changing water. Could running 1% of the water through DI resin daily not solve the same issue? Granted an RO membrane would be more cost effective as a pre filter before that DI yet not practical for this application but for some of us the convenience might be all that matters.

Do you mean running aquarium water through DI? That will attempt to strip the water of all ions, and saturate the DI resin rapidly.

 

[bigdrew]

Just updating: I shut off my skimmer on January 27th. I am also not running with a filter sock (but wasn't before turning off my skimmer either). I do have somewhat of a refugium (live rock, tons of pods and chaeto). My nitrate has remained around 1 and my phosphate has stayed at about .02 since shutting off the skimmer, both of which are low. I am now feeding twice a day a combo of flakes and pellets and I am feeding nori every 2 or 3 days. I have a 20 gallon sump and a 64 gallon tank, which has a net total of 67 gallons of water. I am doing weekly 10 gallon water changes (~15%). I am dosing 2 part for Alk and Calc. I am not running any sort of carbon or doing any other dosing or filtering. Calcium is at 420 and Alk is at 10.3. Magnesium is 1500+.

My encrusting Monti remains a bit bleached and my soft corals all remain a bit poor looking, except for the palys, the toadstool and any of the mushrooms. My plating Monti looks great.

Perhaps 14 days isn't enough time to have a major impact. I'll keep updating this thread and let this play out.

I am trying to avoid dosing any sort of nitrate or phosphate, but I realize that I may have to at some point.

 

[GARRIGA]

Do you mean running aquarium water through DI? That will attempt to strip the water of all ions, and saturate the DI resin rapidly.

I don’t have an RODI so not sure how quickly it will saturate the DI. Just trying to find a solution to removing toxins since that seems to be the final frontier to removing WCs.

 

[J1a]

I don’t have an RODI so not sure how quickly it will saturate the DI. Just trying to find a solution to removing toxins since that seems to be the final frontier to removing WCs.

The seawater have a lot of ions. Sodium, chloride, sulphate, etc. These ions will vbe adsorbes by the DI resin, probably exhaust is rapidly since there is just so much of them.

It's not easy to try to remove the unquantifiable (at hobbie level) pollutants, especially since different aquarium will likely have different types of harmful organics present. We could use GAC or organic resins and hope for the best; or we can just do WC.

 

[GARRIGA]

The seawater have a lot of ions. Sodium, chloride, sulphate, etc. These ions will vbe adsorbes by the DI resin, probably exhaust is rapidly since there is just so much of them.

It's not easy to try to remove the unquantifiable (at hobbie level) pollutants, especially since different aquarium will likely have different types of harmful organics present. We could use GAC or organic resins and hope for the best; or we can just do WC.

Good point and why I asked. Expected carbon to remove some toxins but not sure what else. What organic resins are there?

 

[J1a]

Good point and why I asked. Expected carbon to remove some toxins but not sure what else. What organic resins are there?

I suppose something like purigen or chemipure blue will be suitable. Then again. If it can actually do enough removal, we can't really test.

 

[DopamineKata]

I don’t have an RODI so not sure how quickly it will saturate the DI. Just trying to find a solution to removing toxins since that seems to be the final frontier to removing WCs.

An ozone reactor would take care of those I think.

 

[blaxsun]

I think for smaller nano tanks you can probably do without a skimmer, especially if you're performing regular water changes. For any medium or large tank, though - I think the skimmer is still an essential component.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I think for smaller nano tanks you can probably do without a skimmer, especially if you're performing regular water changes. For any medium or large tank, though - I think the skimmer is still an essential component.

Correct, mature nano reef aquariums don't need a skimmer, or any other mech or chem filtration for that matter, if water changes and maintenance (detritus removal) are done regularly. This is a hard concept to convey to small tank reefers as the idea of a whole lot of filtration aids being needed has trickled down to nano reefing from the medium and large reefing world where larger/frequent water changes and regular detritus removal are often not feasible over the long haul.

However, I can say that even a medium sized reef aquarium of 55g can be run effectively and for an extended period of time with just LR and LS. My mixed softy/easy stony coral 55g ran this way for nearly 10 years, 8 years with no skimmer or other filtration.

 

[GARRIGA]

I suppose something like purigen or chemipure blue will be suitable. Then again. If it can actually do enough removal, we can't really test.

My goal is a 120 to 300g DT in the near future. Water changes aren’t practical for me and just looking for an alternative to remove what might be an issue.

GAC is something I run constantly. ChemiPure is something I’ve used since the 80s. I’ll have to revisit that options if it removes impurities I’m not already removing via other means.

I think Purigen only removes organics before breaking down. Not sure it removes toxins but I’ll reach out to Seachem. They always answer the phone but don’t always divulge everything it does if they haven’t tested for it.

Why I had asked about DI knowing that’s what we depend on to purify tap but not having used it then I have no reference as to how quickly it is depleted. Assumed it would be quick just not sure what quick is.

 

[GARRIGA]

An ozone reactor would take care of those I think.

That’s an interesting option. Obviously didn’t cross my mind. Something I haven’t looked into since the early to mid 90s. Seems it fell out of favor. I’ll have to brush up on it. Don’t recall much about it other than one needs to be ultra careful around it. Thanks

 

[J1a]

Why I had asked about DI knowing that’s what we depend on to purify tap but not having used it then I have no reference as to how quickly it is depleted. Assumed it would be quick just not sure what quick is.

You are right in that DI resin can be used to purify tap water. But we have salt water in our tanks.

 

[GARRIGA]

You are right in that DI resin can be used to purify tap water. But we have salt water in our tanks.

Understood. Just looking for a catch all to a problem I don’t know actually exists but also don’t know it doesn’t.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Understood. Just looking for a catch all to a problem I don’t know actually exists but also don’t know it doesn’t.

Organic binding resins like Purigen may be very useful in this context, as will be GAC, but without knowing what toxin(s) we are trying to bind, it's hard to know how effective they are.

 

[DopamineKata]

That’s an interesting option. Obviously didn’t cross my mind. Something I haven’t looked into since the early to mid 90s. Seems it fell out of favor. I’ll have to brush up on it. Don’t recall much about it other than one needs to be ultra careful around it. Thanks

The reactor from Avast seems to have solved a lot of the hurdles with it. You're not just running ozone into a skimmer.

 

[GARRIGA]

Organic binding resins like Purigen may be very useful in this context, as will be GAC, but without knowing what toxin(s) we are trying to bind, it's hard to know how effective they are.

At a minimum then some is removed which for those of us who long ago abandoned buckets and AWC not practical would help.

 

[GARRIGA]

The reactor from Avast seems to have solved a lot of the hurdles with it. You're not just running ozone into a skimmer.

I'll look into that but I'm looking to do away with the skimmer. Not sure if I can run ozone through a reactor and then remove it with carbon. I assumne what was broken down can then be processed by my filtration.

 

[mattdg]

Very interesting thread, though I don't see many skimmerless full blown SPS heavy mixed reefs posted here. Wouldn't they be the first to suffer from all of this harmful accumulation, allegedly caused by protein skimmers?

PLUS... then you wouldn't get to have something this sexy in your sump. LOL!